4 ms·

We're truly lost when we can't see that there is such a thing as good government and bad government. That there is a difference between corruption and modern li

We're truly lost when we can't see that there is such a thing as good government and bad government. That there is a difference between corruption and modern liberal regulation that follows fair rules. That we can't see that it's ok to regulate CFCs to prevent ozone catastrophe, and not ok to use back room deals to pick favorites. It's not about sides or teams, but there is still right and wrong even in the administration of nation states. And we fluctuate along a gradient with our governments, sometimes its better, sometimes its worse, never perfect, but sometimes much better.

pheaded_while9 4mo ago
You are correct: there is a right and wrong. Rights are actions which do not initiate harm in the form of murder, assault, rape, theft, trespass, coercion, or deception. Wrong actions are the initiation of harm. What is truly lost is the ability to assess on first principles. You are afraid of an outcome, and think "good government" is going to protect you from that risk. A better master who will gaurd you instead of whip you is your end point. It is actually reflective of your character.
Aurornis 4mo ago
I think everyone does see that there is good government and bad government. They just disagree about which one is the good one and which is the bad one. The real problem is when people demand heavy government involvement but don’t think about what could go wrong if an administration decided to misuse the regulation. They just assume it’s going to be used perfectly as they imagined it, usually to punish the companies they dislike while completely sparing the companies they like. A good example is the usual chorus of people demanding heavy regulations or bans of social media, who always imagine that the regulator won’t touch their websites. They imagine surgical laws hitting Facebook and TikTok because they don’t use those websites, but they imagine the law won’t touch their Discords or require them to do any age verification on their phone or PC for the sites they use. Then we get the intrusive age and ID checking law proposals that everyone hates.
- EvanAnderson 4mo ago
  > I think everyone does see that there is good government and bad government. I only know the time and place I've lived in (United States, born in 1977), but I feel like the trope of "all government is bad" has been the rallying cry of conservatives since the Reagan era. I'm convinced enough people have grown up hearing that trope that your assumption is incorrect. I think a ton of people believe there can only be bad government because they've never had to think about it-- they've been told that from birth. I'm not a student of history. Maybe this isn't a new thing and this "all government bad" trope has been a consistent feature of US politics. It doesn't feel like it, though.
  - gcanyon 4mo ago
    They say government is bad, and then set about making that statement true :-/
  - slopinthebag 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    - yoyohello13 4mo ago
      Bullshit. There is a spectrum of good and bad. If you truly believed all government is bad, then please feel free to move to a banana republic.
      - slopinthebag 4mo ago
        Name a good government.
        jacker38 4mo ago
        Australia has a good government. It's extremely middle of the road due to Mandatory voting attendance and preferential voting. It's very much wisdom of the crowd. It's a good system and the results across the board from wealth inequality, GDP per capita, human development pretty much speak for themselves. it basically forces a really centrist approach because everyone preferences all of the candidates you never want to use outrage politics or it will backfire. It also has an independent body that defines where the electorate borders are so gerrymandering is not really a thing.
LogicFailsMe 4mo ago
Alas I suspect the two major forms of government in the US have their own visions of good and bad across the board when there should be no disagreement on issues like CFCs were bad and that we need to break our addiction to coal. But good luck on that when the system itself only rewards short-term achievements and private money is now effectively unlimited. I have issues with both options, but many more issues with one side. But I am fed up with having only two options and picking the lesser of two evils that mostly drop their differences to keep the electoral status quo intact.

pheaded_while9 4mo ago

You are correct: there is a right and wrong. Rights are actions which do not initiate harm in the form of murder, assault, rape, theft, trespass, coercion, or deception. Wrong actions are the initiation of harm. What is truly lost is the ability to assess on first principles. You are afraid of an outcome, and think "good government" is going to protect you from that risk. A better master who will gaurd you instead of whip you is your end point. It is actually reflective of your character.

Aurornis 4mo ago

I think everyone does see that there is good government and bad government. They just disagree about which one is the good one and which is the bad one. The real problem is when people demand heavy government involvement but don’t think about what could go wrong if an administration decided to misuse the regulation. They just assume it’s going to be used perfectly as they imagined it, usually to punish the companies they dislike while completely sparing the companies they like. A good example is the usual chorus of people demanding heavy regulations or bans of social media, who always imagine that the regulator won’t touch their websites. They imagine surgical laws hitting Facebook and TikTok because they don’t use those websites, but they imagine the law won’t touch their Discords or require them to do any age verification on their phone or PC for the sites they use. Then we get the intrusive age and ID checking law proposals that everyone hates.

EvanAnderson 4mo ago
> I think everyone does see that there is good government and bad government. I only know the time and place I've lived in (United States, born in 1977), but I feel like the trope of "all government is bad" has been the rallying cry of conservatives since the Reagan era. I'm convinced enough people have grown up hearing that trope that your assumption is incorrect. I think a ton of people believe there can only be bad government because they've never had to think about it-- they've been told that from birth. I'm not a student of history. Maybe this isn't a new thing and this "all government bad" trope has been a consistent feature of US politics. It doesn't feel like it, though.
- gcanyon 4mo ago
  They say government is bad, and then set about making that statement true :-/
- slopinthebag 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - yoyohello13 4mo ago
    Bullshit. There is a spectrum of good and bad. If you truly believed all government is bad, then please feel free to move to a banana republic.
    - slopinthebag 4mo ago
      Name a good government.
      - jacker38 4mo ago
        Australia has a good government. It's extremely middle of the road due to Mandatory voting attendance and preferential voting. It's very much wisdom of the crowd. It's a good system and the results across the board from wealth inequality, GDP per capita, human development pretty much speak for themselves. it basically forces a really centrist approach because everyone preferences all of the candidates you never want to use outrage politics or it will backfire. It also has an independent body that defines where the electorate borders are so gerrymandering is not really a thing.

LogicFailsMe 4mo ago

Alas I suspect the two major forms of government in the US have their own visions of good and bad across the board when there should be no disagreement on issues like CFCs were bad and that we need to break our addiction to coal. But good luck on that when the system itself only rewards short-term achievements and private money is now effectively unlimited. I have issues with both options, but many more issues with one side. But I am fed up with having only two options and picking the lesser of two evils that mostly drop their differences to keep the electoral status quo intact.