20 ms·

> It's not based on the Bible, it's based on where we know for a fact people actually lived under the Roman empire. If not just speculation based on a 4000 year

by Matl 4mo ago

> It's not based on the Bible, it's based on where we know for a fact people actually lived under the Roman empire. If not just speculation based on a 4000 year-old mythical text, it's literal documented history. It's the invocation of a 'promised land', which even Israeli government officials use as a justification for their actions, that is based on (a reading of) the Bible, despite Israel being nominally a secular country. I don't think many dispute there was a significant population of Jews within the Roman Empire, many of which lived in the rough geographical area of present day Israel. I am not sure how any sort of present day 'inherent right' stems from that.

gwerbin 4mo ago
There's plenty of room for debate about the legitimacy of Zionism, and about what (and when) a "return to Zion" should be. Such debate has been carried out vigorously for 200 years. But it has to start from agreement on basic historical facts, and rejection of non-facts founded in bigotry. Israeli government officials are politicians and vary in perspective, but by and large the Israeli government is a big part of the "nasty colonial racist" part. Their perspective exists but is not authoritative, and it is becoming increasingly unpopular around the world (including among Jews).
- sosomoxie 4mo ago
  Which facts? Are you genetically 100% from Palestine? If not, then the fact is you're not Palestinian. Having trace genetics (possibly, possibly not) from people who once lived in a region does not give you or anyone else permission to go ethnically cleanse that region of the actual inhabitants and steal their land.
  - gwerbin 4mo ago
    This is literally what I'm arguing against. 1) the genetic lineage predates the modern concept of a region called Palestine, and this argument is ridiculous because if I marry a Palestinian woman and have a kid, you're saying my kid isn't Palestinian enough to have any kind of birthright in Palestine. 2) the general idea is that people of that lineage -- having been repeatedly oppressed and kicked out of literally everywhere in Europe at least once over 1800+ years -- should return to that region and establish a nation-state in which they can live under a self-determined government. Ethnic cleansing isn't inherent there.
    - sosomoxie 4mo ago
      European in-fighting does not give you permission to commit genocide in Palestine. Literally nothing that has happened in Europe has any bearing in the Middle East.
bulbar 4mo ago
> there was a significant population of Jews within the Roman Empire Until they got murdered. The Romans also tried to genocide them.

by Matl 4mo ago

gwerbin 4mo ago

There's plenty of room for debate about the legitimacy of Zionism, and about what (and when) a "return to Zion" should be. Such debate has been carried out vigorously for 200 years. But it has to start from agreement on basic historical facts, and rejection of non-facts founded in bigotry. Israeli government officials are politicians and vary in perspective, but by and large the Israeli government is a big part of the "nasty colonial racist" part. Their perspective exists but is not authoritative, and it is becoming increasingly unpopular around the world (including among Jews).

sosomoxie 4mo ago
Which facts? Are you genetically 100% from Palestine? If not, then the fact is you're not Palestinian. Having trace genetics (possibly, possibly not) from people who once lived in a region does not give you or anyone else permission to go ethnically cleanse that region of the actual inhabitants and steal their land.
- gwerbin 4mo ago
  This is literally what I'm arguing against. 1) the genetic lineage predates the modern concept of a region called Palestine, and this argument is ridiculous because if I marry a Palestinian woman and have a kid, you're saying my kid isn't Palestinian enough to have any kind of birthright in Palestine. 2) the general idea is that people of that lineage -- having been repeatedly oppressed and kicked out of literally everywhere in Europe at least once over 1800+ years -- should return to that region and establish a nation-state in which they can live under a self-determined government. Ethnic cleansing isn't inherent there.
  - sosomoxie 4mo ago
    European in-fighting does not give you permission to commit genocide in Palestine. Literally nothing that has happened in Europe has any bearing in the Middle East.

bulbar 4mo ago

> there was a significant population of Jews within the Roman Empire Until they got murdered. The Romans also tried to genocide them.