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It's mind blowing that government bureaucrats would be permitted to use commercial providers for official business at all. The provider being foreign is merely

It's mind blowing that government bureaucrats would be permitted to use commercial providers for official business at all. The provider being foreign is merely the cherry on top. I was going to ask why something like mail.gov.nl doesn't exist but it turns out [0] (edit: wikipedia is full of lies) that they don't have a reserved second level domain for official government services to use? Is this really one of the countries pushing digital IDs? > Official second-level domains do not exist. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.nl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.nl

closewith 4mo ago
That's the most common approach globally. Like most countries, the Dutch Government use .gov.nl.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  Ah. Just a blatant inaccuracy on wikipedia I take it. That does make a bit more sense.
  - robin_reala 4mo ago
    Yep. gov.nl is in the PSL[1] and there are plenty of used subdomains (e.g. https://business.gov.nl/ https://business.gov.nl/) [1] https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat
  - djaro 4mo ago
    As far as I can tell .gov.nl is only used for pages aimed at i.e. expats and businesses. Most services dutch people use simply have a .nl page like the digital id or filing taxes.
    - jurgenburgen 4mo ago
      This makes sense because gov is anglocentric and would make the URLs sound weird in non-English countries.
      - closewith 4mo ago
        And overheid.nl is their government site for that reason.
      - rafram 4mo ago
        There’s no reason they couldn’t have picked a different second-level suffix. Spanish-speaking countries use e.g. .gob.mx, France uses .gouv.fr.
- djaro 4mo ago
  It exists, but the vast majority of government services dont use it (i.e. taxes are just done through belastingdienst.nl).
  - closewith 4mo ago
    Yes, which I think is also very common, but what Wikipedia was referring to is that there's no official second-level domain for Government, unlike say gov.br or gov.uk). Gov.nl is just a domain owned by the Dutch Government, like gov.ie or belgium.be.
pjc50 4mo ago
Privatization: in much of the (neo)liberal West, it is seen as better to use commercial providers. They're supposed to be cheaper and better, because they're not using (union) civil service staff. Yes, this results in enshittification.
- reactordev 4mo ago
  Ah yes, the art of making things shitty. https://youtu.be/T4Upf_B9RLQ https://youtu.be/T4Upf_B9RLQ
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  I'd understand contracting a commercial provider to run the government infra, with extensive contractual obligations surrounding exactly how data is to be handled. What's wild to me is turning government bureaucrats loose to send and receive likely very sensitive information using the third party provider of their choice.
- AnthonyMouse 4mo ago
  The thing that results in enshittification is market consolidation. Notice that Comcast sucks whereas there aren't a lot of complaints about Big Shampoo because that's a fairly competitive market. If the government needs trucks then they should just buy trucks, not build a factory to make trucks and then another factory to make lead acid batteries for the trucks and then start mining lead to make the batteries etc. At some point they have to interface with the market and you still have to solve the problem of keeping the market competitive and keeping the bidding process from being captured. If you're not doing those things then you're screwed either way; if you are doing them then it's better to just buy finished goods than to have civil servants manufacturing doorknobs and operating rubber tree plantations to make weather stripping.
  - fc417fc802 4mo ago
    I think that's true for widgets but it becomes much more opaque when it comes to digital services, particularly those that handle sensitive information. Sure there's govcloud and fedramp these days but if the US federal government had chosen to build that hardware out in house I think that would have been a reasonable decision. It's similar to private versus in house security personnel where there are arguments in favor of both.

closewith 4mo ago

That's the most common approach globally. Like most countries, the Dutch Government use .gov.nl.

fc417fc802 4mo ago
Ah. Just a blatant inaccuracy on wikipedia I take it. That does make a bit more sense.
- robin_reala 4mo ago
  Yep. gov.nl is in the PSL[1] and there are plenty of used subdomains (e.g. https://business.gov.nl/ https://business.gov.nl/) [1] https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat
- djaro 4mo ago
  As far as I can tell .gov.nl is only used for pages aimed at i.e. expats and businesses. Most services dutch people use simply have a .nl page like the digital id or filing taxes.
  - jurgenburgen 4mo ago
    This makes sense because gov is anglocentric and would make the URLs sound weird in non-English countries.
    - closewith 4mo ago
      And overheid.nl is their government site for that reason.
    - rafram 4mo ago
      There’s no reason they couldn’t have picked a different second-level suffix. Spanish-speaking countries use e.g. .gob.mx, France uses .gouv.fr.
djaro 4mo ago
It exists, but the vast majority of government services dont use it (i.e. taxes are just done through belastingdienst.nl).
- closewith 4mo ago
  Yes, which I think is also very common, but what Wikipedia was referring to is that there's no official second-level domain for Government, unlike say gov.br or gov.uk). Gov.nl is just a domain owned by the Dutch Government, like gov.ie or belgium.be.

pjc50 4mo ago

Privatization: in much of the (neo)liberal West, it is seen as better to use commercial providers. They're supposed to be cheaper and better, because they're not using (union) civil service staff. Yes, this results in enshittification.

reactordev 4mo ago
Ah yes, the art of making things shitty. https://youtu.be/T4Upf_B9RLQ https://youtu.be/T4Upf_B9RLQ
fc417fc802 4mo ago
I'd understand contracting a commercial provider to run the government infra, with extensive contractual obligations surrounding exactly how data is to be handled. What's wild to me is turning government bureaucrats loose to send and receive likely very sensitive information using the third party provider of their choice.
AnthonyMouse 4mo ago
The thing that results in enshittification is market consolidation. Notice that Comcast sucks whereas there aren't a lot of complaints about Big Shampoo because that's a fairly competitive market. If the government needs trucks then they should just buy trucks, not build a factory to make trucks and then another factory to make lead acid batteries for the trucks and then start mining lead to make the batteries etc. At some point they have to interface with the market and you still have to solve the problem of keeping the market competitive and keeping the bidding process from being captured. If you're not doing those things then you're screwed either way; if you are doing them then it's better to just buy finished goods than to have civil servants manufacturing doorknobs and operating rubber tree plantations to make weather stripping.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  I think that's true for widgets but it becomes much more opaque when it comes to digital services, particularly those that handle sensitive information. Sure there's govcloud and fedramp these days but if the US federal government had chosen to build that hardware out in house I think that would have been a reasonable decision. It's similar to private versus in house security personnel where there are arguments in favor of both.