3 ms·
> Voting doesn't work Disparaging democracy doesn't work. Saying shit like this is worse than not voting. EDIT: Downvoted for defending democracy. I do love d
by triceratops 5mo ago
> Voting doesn't work
Disparaging democracy doesn't work. Saying shit like this is worse than not voting.
EDIT: Downvoted for defending democracy. I do love democracy :-D
- avaer 5mo agoSince many people reading this probably don't know: voting is not the only, or even the original form of democracy. Representatives in ancient democracies were selected by sortition, which is based on statistics, not popularity or money.
- triceratops 5mo agoThe only way to peacefully change how representatives are selected is...voting.
- thunky 5mo agoNobody voted in Kamala Harris and somehow she became the only choice besides Trump.
- triceratops 5mo agoSo then you agree with me that not being able to vote is catastrophic. "Voting doesn't work" rapidly gets you to "No votes for you."
- thunky 5mo ago[dead]
- catigula 5mo ago[flagged]
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- sveme 5mo agoWhat's your suggested alternative? Would you say that American democracy is broken or democracy in general?
- catigula 5mo ago"Democracy" is a hugely wide category some variant of it is likely the preferred system of governance. Regardless, it's a weasel category. Many would argue that China is democratically reflecting the will of their people. In fact, Von Mises famously argued in his seminal work Liberalism that all systems are democratic because they require the will of the people or are overthrown. A little silly of a reductio in my opinion, but it's emblematic.
- AnimalMuppet 5mo agoSo, to repeat, what is your suggested alternative?
- triceratops 5mo ago> Being a toady for what isn't working makes you useful It's great you aren't a "toady". > this system is broken and needs to be disparaged And then what? You're either being paid to spread this doomslop or you're just a bored, contrarian cynic. I really really hope it's the second one.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> Disparaging democracy The ancient Athenians knew that elections favored the rich. That’s why they incorporated selection by lot into their system. Our modern understanding of democracy has fetishized elections to the point that some voters might see hundreds of them in a year, including for positions that shouldn’t ever be elected (e.g. judges), while still having little to no actual civic power.
- triceratops 5mo agoHow will you get selection by lot into the current system without violence? Voting.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> How will you get selection by lot into the current system without violence? Voting Oh totally agree. But also civic involvement. The returns to even small amounts of civic engagement in America are so ridiculously high because most of the population doesn’t do it. If like 5% more of the electorate called their electeds at least twice a year, that would represent a 25% increase in civic engagement, enough to break constituencies.
- catigula 5mo agoThe "just vote" lot are the perfect pressure release valve for the failed system. Out of control inflation? No healthcare? Endless war? Just vote! You just have to vote for a democrat! It's time to say no to these charlatans. If people lose hope in the system, that's when it can change.
- triceratops 5mo ago> You just have to vote for a democrat! Or a third party. > If people lose hope in the system, that's when it can change There's only 2 ways it can change: voting or violence. You're saying voting doesn't work. That means you're advocating violence.
- boppo1 5mo agoNah, voting doesn't work because to become a candidate necessarily requires backroom dealing at odds with the interests of common voters. We need sortition.
- triceratops 5mo agoHow will you get sortition without voting for a pro-sortition candidate?
- buellerbueller 5mo agoI've thought a lot about this, because my state is heavily gerrymandered, and the legislature keeps voting to undermine several recently passed amendments (abortion rights, marijuana) to our state constitution. They also tried to change the threshold for passing a referendum from 50% + 1 vote to 60%, when it was clear that there was enough support to pass the abortion rights amendment. You do it via constitutional amendment, which is a popular referendum. Fuck what the professional politicians think of sortition; do an end run around them, because professional politicians are the problem. Get this accomplished in enough states, and then you have a level chance of doing an amendment to the US Constitution.
- triceratops 5mo ago> You do it via constitutional amendment, which is a popular referendum. Aka...voting. If you truly believe "voting doesn't work", as you first said (EDIT: that was someone else whose username starts with a "b" sorry), then this referendum won't go anywhere either.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo agoThey didn’t say that! That was kitty Caligula.
- triceratops 5mo ago
- fullshark 5mo agoIt's at best a weak check by the populace on two rival gangs of the ruling class. It's certainly not what its proponents claim it to be.
- triceratops 5mo agoI see, you prefer your gangs unchecked?
- fullshark 5mo agoI clearly did not say that, re-read and try again. There's a lot of thoughtful responses to your histrionics, I suggest you take a breath and actually engage with the ideas contained within them.
- triceratops 5mo ago> There's a lot of thoughtful responses to your histrionics Sorry, can you please point to one of these thoughtful responses? I've seen one idea suggested: "sortition". But no ideas for how to get it peacefully without voting it in. I engaged with all these comments and asked this question. "Voting doesn't work" is a cynical, doomerist, thought terminating cliche. I don't want this mind virus to propagate. You may call my comments "histrionics". But instead I suggest you take a breath and think about where calling voting and elections "useless" leads.
- rubzah 5mo agoSaying it seems to have become a taboo, probably because of the existential horror of it possibly being true.
- triceratops 5mo agoIs there an alternative?
- AnimalMuppet 5mo agoSay the truth; take the downvotes. But I would say that the voting that matters most is voting in primaries. Get rid of the ideologues and zealots on both sides; get some people who can think rather than just yell.
- triceratops 5mo agoAgree. Voting doesn't just mean voting in regular elections for legislators and executives. Vote in every election you are eligible for.
- ramon156 5mo agoNot doing anything is also not working. Denying it is worse than saying its broken. It's clear as day. Key figures, wealth, etc. Shouldn't influence their power to this extend. The general public isn't silent, it's silenced.