5 ms·

Might be a mess linguistically, but it's sure nice to have only 26 letters with no accents on a keyboard.

colechristensen 4mo ago
>only 26 letters with no accents on a keyboard This was caused by the printing press and the typewriter (keyboard) both of which forced simplifications in the written English language.
- lmm 4mo ago
  And yet other languages have managed to resist those simplifications. So it's clearly not 100% forced.
  - colechristensen 4mo ago
    Who says other languages haven't undergone significant changes?
    - lmm 4mo ago
      Some have. But certainly many continue to use letters beyond those 26, despite the difficulty of using those letters in various technologies.
- ummonk 4mo ago
  You just press backspace and hit the accent mark key or for a printing press stack the accent mark on top of the letter. People ditched accents because they were rarely used in English writing (only really being used for some loanwords), not because simplifications were forced by typewriters or the printing press (which handle non-English languages just fine).
  - colechristensen 4mo ago
    For printing presses we're talking about the influence of the first printing presses hundreds of years before industrialization which were imported from Germany and even when they started making their own in England they were more like clones and used imported designs and parts. The early machines had a heavy influence on the written language particularly at times when under 1 in 10 people could write, and with the advent of movable type the people who learned to write were heavily influenced by what they read... books printed on German-design machines. You really only need one generation in a situation like that to dramatically change the language. Losing þ, æ, and ð
pocksuppet 4mo ago
long s and thorn would like to have a word with you, but they can't because they were removed from the keyboard In Unicode, that's ſ and þ. Both historical English letters that are no longer used.
- colechristensen 4mo ago
  "Ye Olde Mill" or whatever archaic silliness you'll find at fairs and whatnot was the result of the printing press dropping þ (as in þe, þ is just th-) and was never supposed to be pronounced with a "y" sound. "Ye Olde" ye was not the same word as "Hear ye, hear ye!", that ye is a plural 'you' basically the same word as "y'all" and never had a thorn.
  - cguess 4mo ago
    Just to expand on this: "ye" in "ye Olde mill" is actually just "the" but originally "þe"/"þee". The first printing presses to England were imported from Germany, which never used þ, so printers used something that looked sorta similar, thus "y". "Ye" was a different word, the 2nd person non-formal version of "you" (which was historically formal: see-Shakespeare and how he played with "ye" and "you"). Thorn was on its way out along with "ð" both of which were in Middle English. The sounds didn't leave English, but we merged it into one letter cluster "th" (think "that" and "the", which have different th sounds).
  - tengwar2 4mo ago
    This happened with more than one letter. For instance the Scots language had a letter yogh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh), which was written somewhat like a rounded "3" but lower on the line. Early printers had only the characters of the English language, and since this character looked like a hand-written z, that is what they used in its place. Hence the name "Menzies" is pronounced "Ming-is", since that isn't actually a z. Welsh suffered more: it used to be full of "k"s. When the first Welsh Bible was printed, the English printer did not have enough "k"s, and substituted "c", and the language now does not use "k" at all. Apparently the printer's note on the matter still exists.
mootothemax 4mo ago
It’s great compression: Y sometimes a vowel, sometimes a consonant. And while not encoded on a keyboard, it still blows my mind that English has a crazy number of past tenses - and a such a bad hack of a future tense that it’s hard to classify as such. Linguistics is fun. The accents are alright.
- tengwar2 4mo ago
  Or English has only two tenses (present and past perfect) and everything else is done with modifiers.
Dylan16807 4mo ago
The pronunciation is so bad though. The consonants are mostly fine, but the way we write vowels is a total mess. We'd need at least a dozen vowel letters to sanely represent English. And we could cut a couple consonant letters to help make room, for maybe 30 letters total, still no accents.
- krapp 4mo ago
  Come now. English can be understood well enough through tough thorough thought.
  - nneonneo 4mo ago
    Just today the NYT Strands puzzle gave a great example: you can find one set of prefixes that make each of the following rhyme, and a different set of prefixes that make them all sound different: -ooze -oose -ews -ues -use -oes -uise You can do this purely with prefixes ending in consonants, i.e. not by turning -use into -ouse, for example.
  - nneonneo 4mo ago
    (spoilers for the little -ooze puzzle: for rhymes, booze choose brews blues ruse shoes cruise; for non-rhymes, snooze loose pews plagues obtuse toes guise; many others are possible, and rhyming or lack thereof may depend on accent).
- mcswell 4mo ago
  Blame that on Latin, which had only five vowels (not counting the long and short vowels separately).

>only 26 letters with no accents on a keyboard This was caused by the printing press and the typewriter (keyboard) both of which forced simplifications in the written English language.

lmm 4mo ago
And yet other languages have managed to resist those simplifications. So it's clearly not 100% forced.
- colechristensen 4mo ago
  Who says other languages haven't undergone significant changes?
  - lmm 4mo ago
    Some have. But certainly many continue to use letters beyond those 26, despite the difficulty of using those letters in various technologies.
ummonk 4mo ago
You just press backspace and hit the accent mark key or for a printing press stack the accent mark on top of the letter. People ditched accents because they were rarely used in English writing (only really being used for some loanwords), not because simplifications were forced by typewriters or the printing press (which handle non-English languages just fine).
- colechristensen 4mo ago
  For printing presses we're talking about the influence of the first printing presses hundreds of years before industrialization which were imported from Germany and even when they started making their own in England they were more like clones and used imported designs and parts. The early machines had a heavy influence on the written language particularly at times when under 1 in 10 people could write, and with the advent of movable type the people who learned to write were heavily influenced by what they read... books printed on German-design machines. You really only need one generation in a situation like that to dramatically change the language. Losing þ, æ, and ð

pocksuppet 4mo ago

long s and thorn would like to have a word with you, but they can't because they were removed from the keyboard In Unicode, that's ſ and þ. Both historical English letters that are no longer used.

colechristensen 4mo ago
"Ye Olde Mill" or whatever archaic silliness you'll find at fairs and whatnot was the result of the printing press dropping þ (as in þe, þ is just th-) and was never supposed to be pronounced with a "y" sound. "Ye Olde" ye was not the same word as "Hear ye, hear ye!", that ye is a plural 'you' basically the same word as "y'all" and never had a thorn.
- cguess 4mo ago
  Just to expand on this: "ye" in "ye Olde mill" is actually just "the" but originally "þe"/"þee". The first printing presses to England were imported from Germany, which never used þ, so printers used something that looked sorta similar, thus "y". "Ye" was a different word, the 2nd person non-formal version of "you" (which was historically formal: see-Shakespeare and how he played with "ye" and "you"). Thorn was on its way out along with "ð" both of which were in Middle English. The sounds didn't leave English, but we merged it into one letter cluster "th" (think "that" and "the", which have different th sounds).
- tengwar2 4mo ago
  This happened with more than one letter. For instance the Scots language had a letter yogh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh), which was written somewhat like a rounded "3" but lower on the line. Early printers had only the characters of the English language, and since this character looked like a hand-written z, that is what they used in its place. Hence the name "Menzies" is pronounced "Ming-is", since that isn't actually a z. Welsh suffered more: it used to be full of "k"s. When the first Welsh Bible was printed, the English printer did not have enough "k"s, and substituted "c", and the language now does not use "k" at all. Apparently the printer's note on the matter still exists.

mootothemax 4mo ago

It’s great compression: Y sometimes a vowel, sometimes a consonant. And while not encoded on a keyboard, it still blows my mind that English has a crazy number of past tenses - and a such a bad hack of a future tense that it’s hard to classify as such. Linguistics is fun. The accents are alright.

tengwar2 4mo ago
Or English has only two tenses (present and past perfect) and everything else is done with modifiers.

Dylan16807 4mo ago

The pronunciation is so bad though. The consonants are mostly fine, but the way we write vowels is a total mess. We'd need at least a dozen vowel letters to sanely represent English. And we could cut a couple consonant letters to help make room, for maybe 30 letters total, still no accents.

krapp 4mo ago
Come now. English can be understood well enough through tough thorough thought.
- nneonneo 4mo ago
  Just today the NYT Strands puzzle gave a great example: you can find one set of prefixes that make each of the following rhyme, and a different set of prefixes that make them all sound different: -ooze -oose -ews -ues -use -oes -uise You can do this purely with prefixes ending in consonants, i.e. not by turning -use into -ouse, for example.
- nneonneo 4mo ago
  (spoilers for the little -ooze puzzle: for rhymes, booze choose brews blues ruse shoes cruise; for non-rhymes, snooze loose pews plagues obtuse toes guise; many others are possible, and rhyming or lack thereof may depend on accent).
mcswell 4mo ago
Blame that on Latin, which had only five vowels (not counting the long and short vowels separately).