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This doesn't have anything to do with privacy. The DMA mandates that Apple allows for competition, which (if you believe in capitalism) is good for the market

This doesn't have anything to do with privacy. The DMA mandates that Apple allows for competition, which (if you believe in capitalism) is good for the market overall. It's essential to stop big tech from abusing their market dominance. However Apple would prefer to not allow competition for their digital products on any of their hardware.

matchbok3 4mo ago
We already have choice - people can buy many different types of phones. Nothing about this is about choice or the free market. They want special treatment. Apple is free to do what they want. The EU can go and try and build their own iPhone (good luck with that).
- FinnKuhn 4mo ago
  > We already have choice - people can buy many different types of phones. Do you really? The only two types of operating systems for phones that you could reasonably use are iOS and Android. So it's either Apple or Google. Imagine a world, in which you could only consume Apple or Google services on those phones. No more Netflix or Disney+ on iPhones - only Apple TV Plus because the streaming video API is not available to third party apps. I think there are plenty of other examples to demonstrate the point. A free market doesn't work if you have a duopoly. A free market requires the freedom to choose between different services, which Apple is trying to limit by only allowing Siri AI to access specific OS interfaces. Not sure why some people on hackernews support more locked down operating system.
  - matchbok3 4mo ago
    There are hundreds of phone models. A smartphone is a just one type. Apple came out of nowhere and invented the smartphone because the existing system was controlled by the telcos and horrible phone technology. The same thing can easily happen again. It makes no sense to limit Netflix on phones and people would probably stop buying iPhones. If the EU wants an "open" phone ecosystem, they should foster real innovation in their space and build it themselves.
  - slopinthebag 4mo ago
    There are phones running alternative versions of Android with no google dependency, and there are phones running linux. Furthermore, if we lived in a world where the two main OS's were locked down to an insane degree, we would also have plenty of alternative operating systems. The reason we don't today is because we don't really have a need for it, in the same way linux has a monopoly on servers and nobody really cares.
    - FinnKuhn 4mo ago
      > There are phones running alternative versions of Android with no google dependency, and there are phones running linux. Those make up 0% of the market [1], which classifies Apple and Google as gatekeepers. [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe/ https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe/
      - slopinthebag 4mo ago
        [flagged]
        FinnKuhn 4mo ago
        Them making the only phones anyone uses makes them the gatekeepers on what people do on their phones -> Apple and Google are gatekeepers under the DMA. It doesn't matter how they became gatekeepers.
        slopinthebag 4mo ago
        [flagged]
        hananova 4mo ago
        The law says they’re gatekeepers. That makes them gatekeepers. There’s no point in trying to “well actually” this. The law is clear.
- f6v 4mo ago
  The EU is going to be China minus the technology.
bnj 4mo ago
But that does have to do with privacy. Apple wants to implement features that access data locally. It doesn’t want to allow competition for offering those features, but if it did, competitors may use that access to local data to exfiltrate. So it is about both competition and, as a result of creating competition, privacy.
- FinnKuhn 4mo ago
  Apple is using Cloud compute as well to enable Siri AI. If you want to you could still use Apple or another provider you decide to trust - or even one that does everything locally. The competition would still have to follow GDPR after all.
  - theshrike79 4mo ago
    Apple PCC has been independently audited to be ultra secure. Will the EU enforce the same for 3rd party integrations?
    - FinnKuhn 4mo ago
      If Apple had e.g. required competitors to undergo similar independent audits that would probably be allowed as it is quite similar to how Apple solved the third party app store issue.
      - MBCook 4mo ago
        Are we sure the EU would allow that? Or would it be seen as a way to stifle competition?
        bigyabai 4mo ago
        I mean, Apple's PCC audits require them to individually vet each auditor before they're allowed to see the PCC nodes. If Apple extended that philosophy to other vendors then yeah, it would be deliberately unfair and anticompetitive.
crimsontech 4mo ago
Siri AI has the capability to read your screen and access a lot of personal stuff. I don't blame Apple for not wanting to open this up to allow any model to access it. It seems Apple proposed a number of solutions which were denied. While I can appreciate the reason for the DMA, people don't have to buy Apple devices, they can buy any type of phone they want and just use the ecosystems provided by these phones.

matchbok3 4mo ago

We already have choice - people can buy many different types of phones. Nothing about this is about choice or the free market. They want special treatment. Apple is free to do what they want. The EU can go and try and build their own iPhone (good luck with that).

FinnKuhn 4mo ago
> We already have choice - people can buy many different types of phones. Do you really? The only two types of operating systems for phones that you could reasonably use are iOS and Android. So it's either Apple or Google. Imagine a world, in which you could only consume Apple or Google services on those phones. No more Netflix or Disney+ on iPhones - only Apple TV Plus because the streaming video API is not available to third party apps. I think there are plenty of other examples to demonstrate the point. A free market doesn't work if you have a duopoly. A free market requires the freedom to choose between different services, which Apple is trying to limit by only allowing Siri AI to access specific OS interfaces. Not sure why some people on hackernews support more locked down operating system.
- matchbok3 4mo ago
  There are hundreds of phone models. A smartphone is a just one type. Apple came out of nowhere and invented the smartphone because the existing system was controlled by the telcos and horrible phone technology. The same thing can easily happen again. It makes no sense to limit Netflix on phones and people would probably stop buying iPhones. If the EU wants an "open" phone ecosystem, they should foster real innovation in their space and build it themselves.
- slopinthebag 4mo ago
  There are phones running alternative versions of Android with no google dependency, and there are phones running linux. Furthermore, if we lived in a world where the two main OS's were locked down to an insane degree, we would also have plenty of alternative operating systems. The reason we don't today is because we don't really have a need for it, in the same way linux has a monopoly on servers and nobody really cares.
  - FinnKuhn 4mo ago
    > There are phones running alternative versions of Android with no google dependency, and there are phones running linux. Those make up 0% of the market [1], which classifies Apple and Google as gatekeepers. [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe/ https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe/
    - slopinthebag 4mo ago
      [flagged]
      - FinnKuhn 4mo ago
        Them making the only phones anyone uses makes them the gatekeepers on what people do on their phones -> Apple and Google are gatekeepers under the DMA. It doesn't matter how they became gatekeepers.
        slopinthebag 4mo ago
        [flagged]
        hananova 4mo ago
        The law says they’re gatekeepers. That makes them gatekeepers. There’s no point in trying to “well actually” this. The law is clear.
f6v 4mo ago
The EU is going to be China minus the technology.

bnj 4mo ago

But that does have to do with privacy. Apple wants to implement features that access data locally. It doesn’t want to allow competition for offering those features, but if it did, competitors may use that access to local data to exfiltrate. So it is about both competition and, as a result of creating competition, privacy.

FinnKuhn 4mo ago
Apple is using Cloud compute as well to enable Siri AI. If you want to you could still use Apple or another provider you decide to trust - or even one that does everything locally. The competition would still have to follow GDPR after all.
- theshrike79 4mo ago
  Apple PCC has been independently audited to be ultra secure. Will the EU enforce the same for 3rd party integrations?
  - FinnKuhn 4mo ago
    If Apple had e.g. required competitors to undergo similar independent audits that would probably be allowed as it is quite similar to how Apple solved the third party app store issue.
    - MBCook 4mo ago
      Are we sure the EU would allow that? Or would it be seen as a way to stifle competition?
      - bigyabai 4mo ago
        I mean, Apple's PCC audits require them to individually vet each auditor before they're allowed to see the PCC nodes. If Apple extended that philosophy to other vendors then yeah, it would be deliberately unfair and anticompetitive.

crimsontech 4mo ago

Siri AI has the capability to read your screen and access a lot of personal stuff. I don't blame Apple for not wanting to open this up to allow any model to access it. It seems Apple proposed a number of solutions which were denied. While I can appreciate the reason for the DMA, people don't have to buy Apple devices, they can buy any type of phone they want and just use the ecosystems provided by these phones.