4 ms·

> I am an L63 but the work I was doing, was something an L60-L61 could do Maybe the problem is imagining that you need sixty three levels of granularity to de

> I am an L63 but the work I was doing, was something an L60-L61 could do Maybe the problem is imagining that you need sixty three levels of granularity to describe experience or to establish superiority over sixty two categories of "lesser" engineers?

MobiusHorizons 4mo ago
It’s not like the op invented Microsoft’s leveling system. It looks like junior engineer is 59 and 63 is something like senior engineer. I know at google there is a very meaningful difference in the work and responsibilities expected between our equivalent of 63 (L5) and 61(L4).
- patates 4mo ago
  Believing in that system so much to say something like that might be worse. Noting against the OP, that kind of Stockholm Syndrome can be found in my past as well.
  - SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
    Not sure I understand. Is your contention that the distinction between senior and non-senior engineers is fake and everyone's doing basically the same thing? Or are you just objecting to the (arbitrary) names Microsoft uses for them?
    - kaydub 4mo ago
      [flagged]
    - patates 4mo ago
      False dichotomy. Of course not everyone has the same experience/skills, but any corporate system of putting individuals to tiers has little to do with experience/skills.
      - SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
        That's just not accurate. I've seen these systems run at multiple companies, and in every case they had a lot to do with skills and experience. It's true that they're not a perfect classification, and I think it's defensible that some people prefer a system where this kind of leveling doesn't happen. But the tradeoff is that career advancement becomes less legible in a way that other people often find frustrating. Why does Alice get paid 3 times as much as me to work on cooler and more important stuff? "Alice is L7 and I'm L4" is often an easier answer to accept than "Alice is a better engineer than I am" or "People with Alice's experience have more options than I do".
        patates 4mo ago
        > That's just not accurate. I've seen these systems run at multiple companies, and in every case they had a lot to do with skills and experience > I am an L63 but the work I was doing, was something an L60-L61 could do So you and OP believe that, these systems are good indicators of skills, so much that the last statement sounds normal? I was thinking like that once, as well, but I got disillusioned. These stuff tend to be gamed. > Why does Alice get paid 3 times as much as me to work on cooler and more important stuff? "Alice is L7 and I'm L4" is often an easier answer to accept than "Alice is a better engineer than I am" or "People with Alice's experience have more options than I do". Sure, that's why these system exist. They justify pay, that's all there is.
        AbbeFaria 4mo ago
        > So you and OP believe that, these systems are good indicators of skills, so much that the last statement sounds normal? Op here, yes I do believe, the levels aren’t perfect though. I believe in them because I was once L60 and L61, I knew intimately what was expected of me then and I can assure you the work I was doing as an L63 could be done by someone few levels down, which is to say I was underutilised. The team was also not the right fit for me. Levels tell you two things, the scope and autonomy you get in your work and more importantly compensation. From the compensation view point, it does tend to be “gamed” frequently by developers hired from outside who might be out earning devs promoted within.
bialpio 4mo ago
Entry-level software engineering at Microsoft starts at L59.
AbbeFaria 4mo ago
Have no idea why people here are picking up on MSFT’s levelling system? I didn’t invent it.And it actually starts at L59. The point I made was that as an SSE (L63), there’s a certain amount of scope and autonomy that is expected neither of which I was getting and hence I resigned. I am not trying to bully or denigrate anyone junior. The levelling system specifies the output and the characteristics of the output expected out of an engineer, that’s it. Whether I believe in it or not is beside the point, I was in the system so I did believe it otherwise progressing through my career would have been impossible.
- stackskipton 4mo ago
  >Have no idea why people here are picking up on MSFT’s levelling system? I didn’t invent it.And it actually starts at L59. Because it's standard arrogance by developers not realizing that Microsoft Level system is actually pay bands and because it was developed in 80s, leveling system COVERS all jobs because pay systems didn't support different pay bands back then. So there are lower levels then 59, for things like janitors, secretaries and others who don't make as much as SWE.

MobiusHorizons 4mo ago

It’s not like the op invented Microsoft’s leveling system. It looks like junior engineer is 59 and 63 is something like senior engineer. I know at google there is a very meaningful difference in the work and responsibilities expected between our equivalent of 63 (L5) and 61(L4).

patates 4mo ago
Believing in that system so much to say something like that might be worse. Noting against the OP, that kind of Stockholm Syndrome can be found in my past as well.
- SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
  Not sure I understand. Is your contention that the distinction between senior and non-senior engineers is fake and everyone's doing basically the same thing? Or are you just objecting to the (arbitrary) names Microsoft uses for them?
  - kaydub 4mo ago
    [flagged]
  - patates 4mo ago
    False dichotomy. Of course not everyone has the same experience/skills, but any corporate system of putting individuals to tiers has little to do with experience/skills.
    - SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
      That's just not accurate. I've seen these systems run at multiple companies, and in every case they had a lot to do with skills and experience. It's true that they're not a perfect classification, and I think it's defensible that some people prefer a system where this kind of leveling doesn't happen. But the tradeoff is that career advancement becomes less legible in a way that other people often find frustrating. Why does Alice get paid 3 times as much as me to work on cooler and more important stuff? "Alice is L7 and I'm L4" is often an easier answer to accept than "Alice is a better engineer than I am" or "People with Alice's experience have more options than I do".
      - patates 4mo ago
        > That's just not accurate. I've seen these systems run at multiple companies, and in every case they had a lot to do with skills and experience > I am an L63 but the work I was doing, was something an L60-L61 could do So you and OP believe that, these systems are good indicators of skills, so much that the last statement sounds normal? I was thinking like that once, as well, but I got disillusioned. These stuff tend to be gamed. > Why does Alice get paid 3 times as much as me to work on cooler and more important stuff? "Alice is L7 and I'm L4" is often an easier answer to accept than "Alice is a better engineer than I am" or "People with Alice's experience have more options than I do". Sure, that's why these system exist. They justify pay, that's all there is.
        AbbeFaria 4mo ago
        > So you and OP believe that, these systems are good indicators of skills, so much that the last statement sounds normal? Op here, yes I do believe, the levels aren’t perfect though. I believe in them because I was once L60 and L61, I knew intimately what was expected of me then and I can assure you the work I was doing as an L63 could be done by someone few levels down, which is to say I was underutilised. The team was also not the right fit for me. Levels tell you two things, the scope and autonomy you get in your work and more importantly compensation. From the compensation view point, it does tend to be “gamed” frequently by developers hired from outside who might be out earning devs promoted within.

bialpio 4mo ago

Entry-level software engineering at Microsoft starts at L59.

AbbeFaria 4mo ago

Have no idea why people here are picking up on MSFT’s levelling system? I didn’t invent it.And it actually starts at L59. The point I made was that as an SSE (L63), there’s a certain amount of scope and autonomy that is expected neither of which I was getting and hence I resigned. I am not trying to bully or denigrate anyone junior. The levelling system specifies the output and the characteristics of the output expected out of an engineer, that’s it. Whether I believe in it or not is beside the point, I was in the system so I did believe it otherwise progressing through my career would have been impossible.

stackskipton 4mo ago
>Have no idea why people here are picking up on MSFT’s levelling system? I didn’t invent it.And it actually starts at L59. Because it's standard arrogance by developers not realizing that Microsoft Level system is actually pay bands and because it was developed in 80s, leveling system COVERS all jobs because pay systems didn't support different pay bands back then. So there are lower levels then 59, for things like janitors, secretaries and others who don't make as much as SWE.