4 ms·

The best intelligence apparatus in the world missed the Oct 7 planning which Egyptian intelligence noticed, told the Israelis about directly, and still went ign

by m-ee 4mo ago

The best intelligence apparatus in the world missed the Oct 7 planning which Egyptian intelligence noticed, told the Israelis about directly, and still went ignored?

HotGarbage 4mo ago
Perfect excuse for the ongoing genocide.
fakedang 4mo ago
This is what I ask everyone who thinks October 7 was an attack launched by Hamas of its own volition. Anyone who's been to and seen the Gaza border knows how impossible it is to cross - unless of course there was some inside permittance.
- SilverElfin 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - pillefitz 4mo ago
    This is not the point OP wanted to make, and you seem smart enough to understand that.
  - atmavatar 4mo ago
    > Gaza residents voted Hamas into power, despite Hamas’s vile charter pledging erasure of Israel and Jews and so on. Reminder: * The last parlimentary election held in Palestine was 2006 [1]. * The median age in Palestine as of 2023 was 19.8 [2]. * The voting age in Palestine is 21 [1]. In other words, the majority of the population today were born after the last major election, and they aren't voting age now, let alone at the time of the last election. When you account for people who were voting age in the last elections, the number of people still around today is a rather small minority. It shrinks even further when you consider that Hamas only got 44% of the votes for Parliament (alas, due to how district votes are handled, that gave Hamas 74 of 132 seats). Given that, I'm a little less sure about holding the current population of Palestine responsible for Hamas. You could argue they should be doing more to displace Hamas, but perhaps that can wait until after they're done worrying about starving to death or being shot by IDF snipers while accepting food from aid workers. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine 2. https://ourworldindata.org/profile/population-demography/palestine#age-structure https://ourworldindata.org/profile/population-demography/pal... See also: https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians...
    - petre 4mo ago
      From what I know about rebels and paramilitary orgs (like FARC), they're always supported by the local population in return for "protection", policing. Same goes for Hamas. I wouldn't say they voted for Hamas but I'm quite sure they support and offer shelter and food to Hamas fighters. My other experiences with Palestinians revealed that they're very empathetic people and they integrate quite well into other cultures when they're not bombed or shot at.
  - snayan 4mo ago
    It is well documented that Israel had heard rumblings that something was coming. A year prior, they had documentation of a plan like what unfolded on October 7th, but dismissed it for reasons I won't speculate on. Google 'Jericho Wall'. Approximately 3 weeks prior to October 7th, Unit 8200 produced a document based on months of research, that showed Hamas seemed to be doing a lot of training and coordinating for something. In the days prior, Egypt warned Israel that something big was happening imminently, but again, it was ignored for reasons I won't speculate on. The night before, the IDF identified a number of anomalies in Hama's behavior but did nothing with this information. A number of members of the intelligence and military leadership have stepped down since, acknowledging the failures. Anyhow, for whatever reason, your belief that this was completely in character for Hamas, seems to be at odds with the beliefs of Israel's intelligence and military community in the months and days prior to the attack on October 7th. Which is, odd, to say the very least.
- petre 4mo ago
  Hamas are fanatics and were dumb enough to try it. They also had the tunnels, missiles from Iran. But I"m quite inclined to believe the Israeli leadership let it happen as a pretext to crush them afterwards, level Gaza, maybe even go against Hezbollah and Iran, but that's a bit too far fetrched.
  - fakedang 4mo ago
    That's precisely what I meant. Hamas always had these plans on how to launch an attack. Israel gave them the opening. And why is everyone forgetting the fact that Yahya Shinwar was basically a Mossad puppet by the time he was released? They released him precisely because they thought that he was milder compared to his contemporaries in Doha. People who've been to that border in normal times know how fiercely that border is protected.
    - petre 4mo ago
      It escapes me how a Palestinian born in a refugee camp and involved into lifetime strife against Israel can also be a Mossad puppet, but who knows. Hamas are crazy fundamentalists that Iran is using along with Hezbollah to perpetrate attacks against Israel. Just what Netanyahu needs to start another war.
      - throwaway27448 4mo ago
        > Hamas are crazy fundamentalists They're normal people—dentists, engineers, bakers, whatever—born into an environment with no sovereignty and the constant threat of death or worse. That's enough to put a gun in anyone's hand. We must stop with this wholly inaccurate and shallow characterization. They are not Boko Haram or ISIS or Al-Qaeda. In fact, they worked with the IDF when ISIS was messing with them about 8 years ago. Are they predominantly muslim? Yes. But their struggle is for sovereignty, not fanatic fundamentalism.
        petre 4mo ago
        That's the image they have created for themselves after kidnapping, raping, abusing and killing innocent civillians and concert goers. Compared to Fatah and the other PLO members who established themselves as political parties, they are just a terrorist organization and recently designated as such in most of the civilized world. Israel has probably discretely supported them in the past order to prevent a two state solution.
- alex_be 4mo ago
  I've been and I've seen. It is a fence. A very long fence. You can't cross it with bare hands, and if you try, you will be shot. This is not the case when dozens of bulldozers simultaneously cross the fence and many thousands of trained terrorists coming out of tunnels and cross the fence through the openings. If you don't have prior intelligence, you can't stop it.
kaikai 4mo ago
Hence the theory that they did know, but chose to let it happen in order to justify the following escalation
- code_biologist 4mo ago
  They're also obviously fine with breaking eggs to make an omelette. Given their history, they seem to regard breaking eggs as the goal, and making an omelette as an afterthought.
petre 4mo ago
I believe they let the oct 7 attacks go through to serve as a pretext for Netanyahu to level Gaza. No evidence whatsoever.
zjaffee 4mo ago
Regardless of anything else, absolutely no one is calling shin bet the best in the world at what they do. The FBI is much more effective. It's the israeli agencies that focus on transnational threats human and signals intellegence (mossad and 8200 respectively, along with other groups in the laters perview under military intellegence).

by m-ee 4mo ago

The best intelligence apparatus in the world missed the Oct 7 planning which Egyptian intelligence noticed, told the Israelis about directly, and still went ignored?

HotGarbage 4mo ago

Perfect excuse for the ongoing genocide.

fakedang 4mo ago

This is what I ask everyone who thinks October 7 was an attack launched by Hamas of its own volition. Anyone who's been to and seen the Gaza border knows how impossible it is to cross - unless of course there was some inside permittance.

SilverElfin 4mo ago
[flagged]
- pillefitz 4mo ago
  This is not the point OP wanted to make, and you seem smart enough to understand that.
- atmavatar 4mo ago
  > Gaza residents voted Hamas into power, despite Hamas’s vile charter pledging erasure of Israel and Jews and so on. Reminder: * The last parlimentary election held in Palestine was 2006 [1]. * The median age in Palestine as of 2023 was 19.8 [2]. * The voting age in Palestine is 21 [1]. In other words, the majority of the population today were born after the last major election, and they aren't voting age now, let alone at the time of the last election. When you account for people who were voting age in the last elections, the number of people still around today is a rather small minority. It shrinks even further when you consider that Hamas only got 44% of the votes for Parliament (alas, due to how district votes are handled, that gave Hamas 74 of 132 seats). Given that, I'm a little less sure about holding the current population of Palestine responsible for Hamas. You could argue they should be doing more to displace Hamas, but perhaps that can wait until after they're done worrying about starving to death or being shot by IDF snipers while accepting food from aid workers. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine 2. https://ourworldindata.org/profile/population-demography/palestine#age-structure https://ourworldindata.org/profile/population-demography/pal... See also: https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians...
  - petre 4mo ago
    From what I know about rebels and paramilitary orgs (like FARC), they're always supported by the local population in return for "protection", policing. Same goes for Hamas. I wouldn't say they voted for Hamas but I'm quite sure they support and offer shelter and food to Hamas fighters. My other experiences with Palestinians revealed that they're very empathetic people and they integrate quite well into other cultures when they're not bombed or shot at.
- snayan 4mo ago
  It is well documented that Israel had heard rumblings that something was coming. A year prior, they had documentation of a plan like what unfolded on October 7th, but dismissed it for reasons I won't speculate on. Google 'Jericho Wall'. Approximately 3 weeks prior to October 7th, Unit 8200 produced a document based on months of research, that showed Hamas seemed to be doing a lot of training and coordinating for something. In the days prior, Egypt warned Israel that something big was happening imminently, but again, it was ignored for reasons I won't speculate on. The night before, the IDF identified a number of anomalies in Hama's behavior but did nothing with this information. A number of members of the intelligence and military leadership have stepped down since, acknowledging the failures. Anyhow, for whatever reason, your belief that this was completely in character for Hamas, seems to be at odds with the beliefs of Israel's intelligence and military community in the months and days prior to the attack on October 7th. Which is, odd, to say the very least.
petre 4mo ago
Hamas are fanatics and were dumb enough to try it. They also had the tunnels, missiles from Iran. But I"m quite inclined to believe the Israeli leadership let it happen as a pretext to crush them afterwards, level Gaza, maybe even go against Hezbollah and Iran, but that's a bit too far fetrched.
- fakedang 4mo ago
  That's precisely what I meant. Hamas always had these plans on how to launch an attack. Israel gave them the opening. And why is everyone forgetting the fact that Yahya Shinwar was basically a Mossad puppet by the time he was released? They released him precisely because they thought that he was milder compared to his contemporaries in Doha. People who've been to that border in normal times know how fiercely that border is protected.
  - petre 4mo ago
    It escapes me how a Palestinian born in a refugee camp and involved into lifetime strife against Israel can also be a Mossad puppet, but who knows. Hamas are crazy fundamentalists that Iran is using along with Hezbollah to perpetrate attacks against Israel. Just what Netanyahu needs to start another war.
    - throwaway27448 4mo ago
      > Hamas are crazy fundamentalists They're normal people—dentists, engineers, bakers, whatever—born into an environment with no sovereignty and the constant threat of death or worse. That's enough to put a gun in anyone's hand. We must stop with this wholly inaccurate and shallow characterization. They are not Boko Haram or ISIS or Al-Qaeda. In fact, they worked with the IDF when ISIS was messing with them about 8 years ago. Are they predominantly muslim? Yes. But their struggle is for sovereignty, not fanatic fundamentalism.
      - petre 4mo ago
        That's the image they have created for themselves after kidnapping, raping, abusing and killing innocent civillians and concert goers. Compared to Fatah and the other PLO members who established themselves as political parties, they are just a terrorist organization and recently designated as such in most of the civilized world. Israel has probably discretely supported them in the past order to prevent a two state solution.
alex_be 4mo ago
I've been and I've seen. It is a fence. A very long fence. You can't cross it with bare hands, and if you try, you will be shot. This is not the case when dozens of bulldozers simultaneously cross the fence and many thousands of trained terrorists coming out of tunnels and cross the fence through the openings. If you don't have prior intelligence, you can't stop it.

kaikai 4mo ago

Hence the theory that they did know, but chose to let it happen in order to justify the following escalation

code_biologist 4mo ago
They're also obviously fine with breaking eggs to make an omelette. Given their history, they seem to regard breaking eggs as the goal, and making an omelette as an afterthought.

petre 4mo ago

I believe they let the oct 7 attacks go through to serve as a pretext for Netanyahu to level Gaza. No evidence whatsoever.

zjaffee 4mo ago

Regardless of anything else, absolutely no one is calling shin bet the best in the world at what they do. The FBI is much more effective. It's the israeli agencies that focus on transnational threats human and signals intellegence (mossad and 8200 respectively, along with other groups in the laters perview under military intellegence).