5 ms·

Along these lines, but with a bit more: Israel definitely wanted us to do this, but they've been trying to sell US presidents on this for decades without succe

by EA-3167 4mo ago

Along these lines, but with a bit more: Israel definitely wanted us to do this, but they've been trying to sell US presidents on this for decades without success. MBS and the Saudis also want this, but you rarely read about that in the news; likewise with the UAE and quite a few others who have even been running their own direct strikes on Iran. The thing is, and I realize this is a rough climate to say this into: Jews have been the official scapegoats for the Middle East and Europe for what... 1500 years now? That doesn't just go away, and the political expediency of Trump covering his ass and the ass of his Saudi/UAE sources of billions (through Jared, Ivanka, Eric, etc) can't be thrown under the bus to do it. Meanwhile Israel is being run by a universally loathed man who can't shut up, so it's just easier to pretend that's it all their fault.

rf15 4mo ago
Forcing the existence of a new jewish state has created, as expected, a permanent political fissure in the area. This is just dumb ideas piling up upon one another.
- vkou 4mo ago
  > Forcing the existence of a new jewish state has created, as expected, a permanent political fissure in the area. No, forcing the existence of a new aggressively expansionist jewish state did that.
  - flyinglizard 4mo ago
    Mind you Israel was the one that supported the partition plan in 1948. The expansion came from the other side who wanted it all
    - g8oz 4mo ago
      Plans for ethnic cleansing Palestinians were being drawn up in the 1930s. No idea what you are talking about
    - Hikikomori 4mo ago
      Remind me, what was in Ben gurions private coorespendece?
  - marcosdumay 4mo ago
    There is no other kind of state an external power can force into existing.
awesome_dude 4mo ago
It's Israel's immediate history (as in the last year or so) that's made it an easier scapegoat. That and the Saud's, despite an appalling human rights record, are politically difficult to blame for anything (including Bin Laden), because of their (brilliant) petro politics - playing the Eastern bloc off against the West incredibly well.
thisislife2 4mo ago
> MBS and the Saudis also want this While it is true that the Saudis are hostile to Iran and do want Iran's power to be curtailed, they were never in favour of the current war because they knew the plan was ill-thought and suicidal for it, as they knew how Iran would respond (and how ill-prepared they and the American military was to defend them). Iran's foreign policy with its Arab neighbours is based on the blunt but simple principle - "Peace for all. Prosperity for all." Implied in it is that if any of the Arab neighbours upset the public peace in Iran and / or attacked its economy, it would retaliate to ensure they too wouldn't have any peace or prosperity. And that's exactly how it played out ...
- EA-3167 4mo ago
  They literally bombed Iran themselves in the midst of a ceasefire, they also are on record pushing to finish Iran off. It just doesn’t get as much coverage as anything with Israel in the headline. I.E. https://apnews.com/article/trump-iran-saudi-arabia-mbs-gulf-war-uae-89f690b952fe28d3140c537b70fa5051 https://apnews.com/article/trump-iran-saudi-arabia-mbs-gulf-...
  - thisislife2 4mo ago
    The Saudis have only done "tit for tat" bombing, and are especially cautious to ensure that there is no escalation. Yes, they would prefer if this war could curtail Iran's power but they don't want it at the cost of their economy. Saudi Arabia Built a Private De-Escalation Track With Iran. - https://houseofsaud.com/saudi-helsinki-bilateral-iran-de-escalation-architecture/ https://houseofsaud.com/saudi-helsinki-bilateral-iran-de-esc... (The whole of the https://houseofsaud.com/ https://houseofsaud.com/ provides an interesting Saudi perspective on the war and their relationships with the US).
    - EA-3167 4mo ago
      Yes I appreciate their... stated aims. I'm a bit of cynic though, so I prefer revealed preferences to declared ones when I'm judging people.
    - 4mo ago
renlo 4mo ago
> 1500 years I’m curious what the Lindy Effect would mean in this case
- EA-3167 4mo ago
  Fighting over that patch is one of the older continuous activities of the species, and while anything is possible, I would never bet in favor of MENA peace.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]

by EA-3167 4mo ago

rf15 4mo ago

Forcing the existence of a new jewish state has created, as expected, a permanent political fissure in the area. This is just dumb ideas piling up upon one another.

vkou 4mo ago
> Forcing the existence of a new jewish state has created, as expected, a permanent political fissure in the area. No, forcing the existence of a new aggressively expansionist jewish state did that.
- flyinglizard 4mo ago
  Mind you Israel was the one that supported the partition plan in 1948. The expansion came from the other side who wanted it all
  - g8oz 4mo ago
    Plans for ethnic cleansing Palestinians were being drawn up in the 1930s. No idea what you are talking about
  - Hikikomori 4mo ago
    Remind me, what was in Ben gurions private coorespendece?
- marcosdumay 4mo ago
  There is no other kind of state an external power can force into existing.

awesome_dude 4mo ago

It's Israel's immediate history (as in the last year or so) that's made it an easier scapegoat. That and the Saud's, despite an appalling human rights record, are politically difficult to blame for anything (including Bin Laden), because of their (brilliant) petro politics - playing the Eastern bloc off against the West incredibly well.

thisislife2 4mo ago

> MBS and the Saudis also want this While it is true that the Saudis are hostile to Iran and do want Iran's power to be curtailed, they were never in favour of the current war because they knew the plan was ill-thought and suicidal for it, as they knew how Iran would respond (and how ill-prepared they and the American military was to defend them). Iran's foreign policy with its Arab neighbours is based on the blunt but simple principle - "Peace for all. Prosperity for all." Implied in it is that if any of the Arab neighbours upset the public peace in Iran and / or attacked its economy, it would retaliate to ensure they too wouldn't have any peace or prosperity. And that's exactly how it played out ...

EA-3167 4mo ago
They literally bombed Iran themselves in the midst of a ceasefire, they also are on record pushing to finish Iran off. It just doesn’t get as much coverage as anything with Israel in the headline. I.E. https://apnews.com/article/trump-iran-saudi-arabia-mbs-gulf-war-uae-89f690b952fe28d3140c537b70fa5051 https://apnews.com/article/trump-iran-saudi-arabia-mbs-gulf-...
- thisislife2 4mo ago
  The Saudis have only done "tit for tat" bombing, and are especially cautious to ensure that there is no escalation. Yes, they would prefer if this war could curtail Iran's power but they don't want it at the cost of their economy. Saudi Arabia Built a Private De-Escalation Track With Iran. - https://houseofsaud.com/saudi-helsinki-bilateral-iran-de-escalation-architecture/ https://houseofsaud.com/saudi-helsinki-bilateral-iran-de-esc... (The whole of the https://houseofsaud.com/ https://houseofsaud.com/ provides an interesting Saudi perspective on the war and their relationships with the US).
  - EA-3167 4mo ago
    Yes I appreciate their... stated aims. I'm a bit of cynic though, so I prefer revealed preferences to declared ones when I'm judging people.
  - 4mo ago

renlo 4mo ago

> 1500 years I’m curious what the Lindy Effect would mean in this case

EA-3167 4mo ago
Fighting over that patch is one of the older continuous activities of the species, and while anything is possible, I would never bet in favor of MENA peace.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]