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It's so surprising that despute so many screams "China" in western media in the last 15 years, it happens in the west, but in China it's free to use any OS with

by zx8080 4mo ago

It's so surprising that despute so many screams "China" in western media in the last 15 years, it happens in the west, but in China it's free to use any OS without any negative consequences. Why? What's going on?

minraws 4mo ago
Not true the part about China, but yes Western countries do like to pretend they have a lot more freedom than they do. If you can't criticize or protest Xi in China, try criticize or protesting the laws in rest of the world. Especially the things they do in the name of privacy, I remember UK jailing folks for FB posts, that's stuff that happens in third world countries. Not that UK ever had much of a leg to stand on, US does the same now very scary. For trips to any of the countries first thing I check is my socials and delete stuff that might get checked on airports now. This was apparently not supposed to happen in the developed world. My friends still tell me it's not that bad, but it's just scary reading stuff on HN like this once a month, every month for the last few years.
- nextstep 4mo ago
  Do you have any sources for these claims about China?
  - vsgherzi 4mo ago
    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/police-warn-families-of-tiananmen-crackdown-dead-not-to-visit-graves-on-37th-anniversary https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/police-warn-families-... Not exactly what you asked but here’s something tangentially related
    - nextstep 4mo ago
      Blocking an event memorializing a shameful part of China’s history? that’s not great, but that’s really not the same thing
- eunos 4mo ago
  US now apparently asked your social media account including public access if you apply for a visa. Chinese don't care about that.
  - afavour 4mo ago
    Well yeah, because they block outside social media networks…
    - eunos 4mo ago
      The point is they don't care my yap on my social media unlike the other nation across the pond
      - afavour 4mo ago
        Right… because your yap is not accessible to anyone in their country and they have a much higher level of control and tracking that makes a potential dissident less dangerous. I’m not defending the US policy for a second, it’s totalitarian. But holding China up as a positive comparison to totalitarian impulses is missing the bigger picture.
        Markoff 4mo ago
        not accessible, right, VPN in China cost less than a dollar, truly inaccessible service tell me you know nothing about China without telling me you know nothing about China besides parroted propaganda
      - trumpdong 4mo ago
        They give lighter censorship to foreigners (e.g allowing more VPNs) to lighten the image they get of the country.
- sofixa 4mo ago
  > I remember UK jailing folks for FB posts, that's stuff that happens in third world countries. The only cases this has happened has been over people actively calling for racial violence over an imagined scare - bunch of morons thought a muslim migrant killed someone, so they went on to riot, burn mosques, assault foreign looking people, etc; on day 2 it was revealed the perpetrator was a Britain born Christian son of foreign origins, but the morons didn't care, they had their excuse. I struggle to think of many countries where calling for immediate violence, on Facebook or in public with placards, is acceptable. Or any reason why it should be.
  - minraws 4mo ago
    I don't know I don't think they were jailed but some guy also got arrested for saying bad stuff about the King https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyenzdz66wo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyenzdz66wo Sure courts won but the arrest is the issue. Courts general also win in other democratic third world countries but the initial arrest is enough of an intimidation. Also this is a slippery slope I remember one person you mentioned were bad but there was another which wasn't nearly as bad. Also folks on the other side can say the same thing when you call them fascists or something. Sure saying bad stuff is bad, but it's very very fucking slippery slope. All speech is hate speech of you are not in line with the current govt. Another example from what you might consider hateful probably who went to jail and was acquitted but after a lengthy process. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgv785n23eo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgv785n23eo I am not saying UK is the next China but, it's rather fascinating people in UK to claim they have so much more freedom and privacy. Basically if China is 100% authoritarian, UK is atleast 70% there. They just need a leader to abuse these systems to come in power.
    - sofixa 4mo ago
      > Sure courts won but the arrest is the issue. Indeed, but police do this kind of thing in a lot of places. Didn't the US have multiple cases of people being arrested over comments on Kirk's death? It's not good, but cops on a power trip because you hurt their feelings is not a thing we can easily root out. Hence why courts matter. > All speech is hate speech of you are not in line with the current govt. Not at all what hate speech means. > Basically if China is 100% authoritarian, UK is atleast 70% there. They just need a leader to abuse these systems to come in power. Yeah, no, 70% is ridiculous. I'm not sure you can clearly measure this, but at most 50%. Even with an abusive leader you can still criticise them and the monarch without fear of actual repercussions. In China prison time is basically guaranteed.
- somewhatgoated 4mo ago
  Idk I went to probably dozens of public protests here screaming no justice no peace, fuck the police and nothing ever happened to me, except a little tear-gas once in a while. I might be on some secret police lists not sure. Living in Germany so UK might be much worse for all I know , but I would be surprised if Germany is the shining paragon for democracy now.
  - trumpdong 4mo ago
    Germany tends to allow protests they know will have no effect. Try a Palestine protest - those are more dangerous to the regime. Also take note of the ratio of cops to protestors.
    - somewhatgoated 4mo ago
      I’ve been to plenty of Palestine protests, no idea what regime you are alluding to. Sure we have a police state problem and I won’t pretend everything is peachy - but it’s far from as extreme as some comments here make it out to be
kubb 4mo ago
Maybe because in 50 western countries nobody bothers you and the 1 exception, the UK did some weird stuff with online policing. The courts don’t sentence for that even in the UK, all you hear about are police actions. They’re also declining hard because of brexit and maybe fear public unrest. And in China for dissent you go to a reeducation camp. Or maybe the China incidents aren’t newsworthy, just expected.
- chii 4mo ago
  > And in China for dissent you go to a reeducation camp. that may be true, but in the US, you get shot?
  - afavour 4mo ago
    Not that I want to defend US police but even in Trump’s America that’s largely untrue. Folks are still able to protest. The situation is worse than it has been in the past but it’s not at China equivalence levels.
sph 4mo ago
Because it's never been as simple as 'West good, China bad.' That line of propaganda pushed by the US government worked well for the better part of a century, not any more.
afavour 4mo ago
China has a whole other level of control going on. You’re free to use any mobile OS you want because they’re able to monitoring every internet connection, see what you’re downloading and block any and all content they deem unsuitable with no recourse. They can also arrest you and move you to a labor camp with little recourse. I’m not defending the UK police’s actions here but “it’s just as bad as China!” is a refrain you see often that rarely adds up.
- skeptic_ai 4mo ago
  Tbh I feel what you say it’s just to feel good about how bad our situation is. Oh, their situation is much worse, don’t worry about us, we are so much better.
  - afavour 4mo ago
    Not at all. I’m saying the suggestion that we’re in China levels of control are simply inaccurate. Hyperbole is never a useful response. We should be criticizing our governments. But for the things they’re actually doing. Not what we imagine them to be doing.
- joe463369 4mo ago
  There is zero evidence of any UK police action.
  - rgblambda 4mo ago
    There isn't even any indication of police involvement. "The authorities" could mean anything from the local police service to the National Crime Agency, to the National Cyber Security Centre (part of GCHQ) and anything in between.
- Markoff 4mo ago
  /s yup, me and my whole family using VPNs on there phones were arrested and placed in labor camp, I'm writing this now from camp, sending it to gateway on pigeon... but seriously, these people fear mongering arbor China are completely clueless, China absolutely doesn't care about you unless you go against gov, nobody checked our phones at border, nobody bothered us, at the Beijing province border checks they noticed we didn't register our accommodation which is mandatory and just let us go on our trip anyway telling us to go to police after weekend where we met extremely laid-back police officers smoking under no smoking sign been living there for years and the situation was same, I fucked up paperwork which would in US lead to detention and deportation, in China we always found solution, there is always workaround for rules, China doesn't care about you unless you do something extreme against the gov I remember being on high horse about freedom and other BS regarding West vs china, but since COVID I'm more and more failing to see the difference, quite the opposite for West

by zx8080 4mo ago

minraws 4mo ago

Not true the part about China, but yes Western countries do like to pretend they have a lot more freedom than they do. If you can't criticize or protest Xi in China, try criticize or protesting the laws in rest of the world. Especially the things they do in the name of privacy, I remember UK jailing folks for FB posts, that's stuff that happens in third world countries. Not that UK ever had much of a leg to stand on, US does the same now very scary. For trips to any of the countries first thing I check is my socials and delete stuff that might get checked on airports now. This was apparently not supposed to happen in the developed world. My friends still tell me it's not that bad, but it's just scary reading stuff on HN like this once a month, every month for the last few years.

nextstep 4mo ago
Do you have any sources for these claims about China?
- vsgherzi 4mo ago
  https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/police-warn-families-of-tiananmen-crackdown-dead-not-to-visit-graves-on-37th-anniversary https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/police-warn-families-... Not exactly what you asked but here’s something tangentially related
  - nextstep 4mo ago
    Blocking an event memorializing a shameful part of China’s history? that’s not great, but that’s really not the same thing
eunos 4mo ago
US now apparently asked your social media account including public access if you apply for a visa. Chinese don't care about that.
- afavour 4mo ago
  Well yeah, because they block outside social media networks…
  - eunos 4mo ago
    The point is they don't care my yap on my social media unlike the other nation across the pond
    - afavour 4mo ago
      Right… because your yap is not accessible to anyone in their country and they have a much higher level of control and tracking that makes a potential dissident less dangerous. I’m not defending the US policy for a second, it’s totalitarian. But holding China up as a positive comparison to totalitarian impulses is missing the bigger picture.
      - Markoff 4mo ago
        not accessible, right, VPN in China cost less than a dollar, truly inaccessible service tell me you know nothing about China without telling me you know nothing about China besides parroted propaganda
    - trumpdong 4mo ago
      They give lighter censorship to foreigners (e.g allowing more VPNs) to lighten the image they get of the country.
sofixa 4mo ago
> I remember UK jailing folks for FB posts, that's stuff that happens in third world countries. The only cases this has happened has been over people actively calling for racial violence over an imagined scare - bunch of morons thought a muslim migrant killed someone, so they went on to riot, burn mosques, assault foreign looking people, etc; on day 2 it was revealed the perpetrator was a Britain born Christian son of foreign origins, but the morons didn't care, they had their excuse. I struggle to think of many countries where calling for immediate violence, on Facebook or in public with placards, is acceptable. Or any reason why it should be.
- minraws 4mo ago
  I don't know I don't think they were jailed but some guy also got arrested for saying bad stuff about the King https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyenzdz66wo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyenzdz66wo Sure courts won but the arrest is the issue. Courts general also win in other democratic third world countries but the initial arrest is enough of an intimidation. Also this is a slippery slope I remember one person you mentioned were bad but there was another which wasn't nearly as bad. Also folks on the other side can say the same thing when you call them fascists or something. Sure saying bad stuff is bad, but it's very very fucking slippery slope. All speech is hate speech of you are not in line with the current govt. Another example from what you might consider hateful probably who went to jail and was acquitted but after a lengthy process. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgv785n23eo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgv785n23eo I am not saying UK is the next China but, it's rather fascinating people in UK to claim they have so much more freedom and privacy. Basically if China is 100% authoritarian, UK is atleast 70% there. They just need a leader to abuse these systems to come in power.
  - sofixa 4mo ago
    > Sure courts won but the arrest is the issue. Indeed, but police do this kind of thing in a lot of places. Didn't the US have multiple cases of people being arrested over comments on Kirk's death? It's not good, but cops on a power trip because you hurt their feelings is not a thing we can easily root out. Hence why courts matter. > All speech is hate speech of you are not in line with the current govt. Not at all what hate speech means. > Basically if China is 100% authoritarian, UK is atleast 70% there. They just need a leader to abuse these systems to come in power. Yeah, no, 70% is ridiculous. I'm not sure you can clearly measure this, but at most 50%. Even with an abusive leader you can still criticise them and the monarch without fear of actual repercussions. In China prison time is basically guaranteed.
somewhatgoated 4mo ago
Idk I went to probably dozens of public protests here screaming no justice no peace, fuck the police and nothing ever happened to me, except a little tear-gas once in a while. I might be on some secret police lists not sure. Living in Germany so UK might be much worse for all I know , but I would be surprised if Germany is the shining paragon for democracy now.
- trumpdong 4mo ago
  Germany tends to allow protests they know will have no effect. Try a Palestine protest - those are more dangerous to the regime. Also take note of the ratio of cops to protestors.
  - somewhatgoated 4mo ago
    I’ve been to plenty of Palestine protests, no idea what regime you are alluding to. Sure we have a police state problem and I won’t pretend everything is peachy - but it’s far from as extreme as some comments here make it out to be

kubb 4mo ago

Maybe because in 50 western countries nobody bothers you and the 1 exception, the UK did some weird stuff with online policing. The courts don’t sentence for that even in the UK, all you hear about are police actions. They’re also declining hard because of brexit and maybe fear public unrest. And in China for dissent you go to a reeducation camp. Or maybe the China incidents aren’t newsworthy, just expected.

chii 4mo ago
> And in China for dissent you go to a reeducation camp. that may be true, but in the US, you get shot?
- afavour 4mo ago
  Not that I want to defend US police but even in Trump’s America that’s largely untrue. Folks are still able to protest. The situation is worse than it has been in the past but it’s not at China equivalence levels.

sph 4mo ago

Because it's never been as simple as 'West good, China bad.' That line of propaganda pushed by the US government worked well for the better part of a century, not any more.

afavour 4mo ago

China has a whole other level of control going on. You’re free to use any mobile OS you want because they’re able to monitoring every internet connection, see what you’re downloading and block any and all content they deem unsuitable with no recourse. They can also arrest you and move you to a labor camp with little recourse. I’m not defending the UK police’s actions here but “it’s just as bad as China!” is a refrain you see often that rarely adds up.

skeptic_ai 4mo ago
Tbh I feel what you say it’s just to feel good about how bad our situation is. Oh, their situation is much worse, don’t worry about us, we are so much better.
- afavour 4mo ago
  Not at all. I’m saying the suggestion that we’re in China levels of control are simply inaccurate. Hyperbole is never a useful response. We should be criticizing our governments. But for the things they’re actually doing. Not what we imagine them to be doing.
joe463369 4mo ago
There is zero evidence of any UK police action.
- rgblambda 4mo ago
  There isn't even any indication of police involvement. "The authorities" could mean anything from the local police service to the National Crime Agency, to the National Cyber Security Centre (part of GCHQ) and anything in between.
Markoff 4mo ago
/s yup, me and my whole family using VPNs on there phones were arrested and placed in labor camp, I'm writing this now from camp, sending it to gateway on pigeon... but seriously, these people fear mongering arbor China are completely clueless, China absolutely doesn't care about you unless you go against gov, nobody checked our phones at border, nobody bothered us, at the Beijing province border checks they noticed we didn't register our accommodation which is mandatory and just let us go on our trip anyway telling us to go to police after weekend where we met extremely laid-back police officers smoking under no smoking sign been living there for years and the situation was same, I fucked up paperwork which would in US lead to detention and deportation, in China we always found solution, there is always workaround for rules, China doesn't care about you unless you do something extreme against the gov I remember being on high horse about freedom and other BS regarding West vs china, but since COVID I'm more and more failing to see the difference, quite the opposite for West