4 ms·

>Why would the last group of N people not subsistence farm? Why would they be able to reinvent that, when none of their ancestors for how many generations did

>Why would the last group of N people not subsistence farm? Why would they be able to reinvent that, when none of their ancestors for how many generations did so? Is that something a person can do well, do you think, with no prior experience or expertise? What if they get it wrong, they'll starve? We could ask why they could reinvent all the technologies that people from prior eras of agriculture could manage? Will they instantly be able to make their own ropes, do you think? Have you ever made rope? Does it not count as technology if it's not a transistor etched into a silicon wafer? But previous eras of history did utilized that quite a bit for their agriculture. Are they supposed to make due without? There must be a hundred different things they won't know how to do, but were necessary for agriculture in any era of history you might name, but that you can't name because you know nothing about it. Technologies, ones so mundane that you don't even recognize they exist, permeate the world. They're lost and then they're gone because a replacement was better. But when the replacement disappears, those lost technologies don't spring back into existence magically. Civilization is "path dependent", it doesn't get knocked back to previous tiers because those previous tiers cease to exist once we've moved on to the next. And it's really hilarious to me that not only are you ignorant of this, but you're snarky about it too.

sethammons 4mo ago
People live in the alaskan bush. QED
- NoMoreNicksLeft 4mo ago
  Does a full, capable, lively civilization live in the Alaskan bush? Or is just a few grizzled assholes doing it to prove that they can? And do those assholes have enough spare time and effort and interest to raise families? Any women of reproductive age out there with them? If not, this probably isn't the model that proves that human extinction is an unreasonable worry.
defrost 4mo ago
You should realise (apparently not?) that many people alive today still farm with minimal technology .. moreover there are people alive still hunting and gathering. They've not lost their skill to survive sans tech - unlike, say, yourself. Still, if it helps you - take notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c
- NoMoreNicksLeft 4mo ago
  >You should realise (apparently not?) that many people alive today still farm with minimal technology Actually, I know alot more about this than you do. And what you call "minimal technology" is not the case at all. Do you think you could make a plow or use it, supposing you had a mule to go with it? Why do you think it's "minimal technology"? But if you insist it is, I take it to mean that you think just anyone could construct or procure a plow in the Mad Max wastelands, which is silly on its face. It's not just the bronze/iron/steel work. Now we're back to "can you make a rope?"... can you? I think with an hour or two you could make something. If I brought the tool for you to use. And if you had the fiber for it. But it takes quite alot of practice to get good at it, I'll never get there. And even if you had the tool (haha, sandcast one in iron for bonus points!), and had the practice, now you're a fucking hemp/jute/sissal/something farmer just to have enough fiber to make the ropes to plow, but you're no longer growing grain so you don't need the plow. Why is this minimal technology so uncooperative, do you think? Why do you need so many fucking specialties just to do subsistence farming? Maybe you should go out there like they did 12,000 years ago with a stone hoe and plant the seeds stooped over, one at a time. I'm sure the yields will be high enough with that that humanity's numbers can start growing again instead of shrinking. >Still, if it helps you - take notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c Cute, someone who watches video instead of reads. That's... I dunno. Maybe if you read, you'd understand how centuries ago this continent was so full of game that those Europeans who saw it were astounded, but now there's practically nothing left. Not enough to feed a recovering civilization with anyway. Even if they used firearms instead of the spear in that video. I'll even forgiven that now you've stepped back even further from the subsistence agriculture thing to hunting-and-gathering. Maybe humanity should crawl back into the ocean and become fish too... that's how we'll beat extinction.
  - defrost 4mo ago
    > Actually, I know alot more about this than you do. So you say. > Do you think you could make a plow or use it, supposing you had a mule to go with it? What, another one? We used oxen and draught horses rather than mules. > you think just anyone could construct or procure a plow in the Mad Max wastelands, I live in Australia, I know where many working old ploughs are - most of the farms here still have them on display - there are several on this very property. > Now we're back to "can you make a rope? Sure - been there, down that, have you? Look, this is getting dull - I'm 70, I grew up in a remote location, my father, still alive, born in 1935, fed his family as a child while his father was away at war - I've often spent months in remote areas. In the event of the collapse of the modern US tech sphere some humans will get by, others will not.
triceratops 4mo ago
> when none of their ancestors for how many generations [farmed] Because they'd still have books and seeds and farming implements lying around? And maybe some actual farmers to learn from? > What if they get it wrong, they'll starve? Probably, yeah many will starve. Early English settlers in North America had very little farming experience and many died. Enough survived to build colonies.
bombcar 4mo ago
They don't need to reinvent it - the Amish are doing it right now to some variation of "Amish on a tractor" if you want. Insisting that negative population growth necessarily means extinction is as silly as saying that positive population growth necessarily means people standing on people from coast to coast.

sethammons 4mo ago

People live in the alaskan bush. QED

NoMoreNicksLeft 4mo ago
Does a full, capable, lively civilization live in the Alaskan bush? Or is just a few grizzled assholes doing it to prove that they can? And do those assholes have enough spare time and effort and interest to raise families? Any women of reproductive age out there with them? If not, this probably isn't the model that proves that human extinction is an unreasonable worry.

defrost 4mo ago

You should realise (apparently not?) that many people alive today still farm with minimal technology .. moreover there are people alive still hunting and gathering. They've not lost their skill to survive sans tech - unlike, say, yourself. Still, if it helps you - take notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c

NoMoreNicksLeft 4mo ago
>You should realise (apparently not?) that many people alive today still farm with minimal technology Actually, I know alot more about this than you do. And what you call "minimal technology" is not the case at all. Do you think you could make a plow or use it, supposing you had a mule to go with it? Why do you think it's "minimal technology"? But if you insist it is, I take it to mean that you think just anyone could construct or procure a plow in the Mad Max wastelands, which is silly on its face. It's not just the bronze/iron/steel work. Now we're back to "can you make a rope?"... can you? I think with an hour or two you could make something. If I brought the tool for you to use. And if you had the fiber for it. But it takes quite alot of practice to get good at it, I'll never get there. And even if you had the tool (haha, sandcast one in iron for bonus points!), and had the practice, now you're a fucking hemp/jute/sissal/something farmer just to have enough fiber to make the ropes to plow, but you're no longer growing grain so you don't need the plow. Why is this minimal technology so uncooperative, do you think? Why do you need so many fucking specialties just to do subsistence farming? Maybe you should go out there like they did 12,000 years ago with a stone hoe and plant the seeds stooped over, one at a time. I'm sure the yields will be high enough with that that humanity's numbers can start growing again instead of shrinking. >Still, if it helps you - take notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c Cute, someone who watches video instead of reads. That's... I dunno. Maybe if you read, you'd understand how centuries ago this continent was so full of game that those Europeans who saw it were astounded, but now there's practically nothing left. Not enough to feed a recovering civilization with anyway. Even if they used firearms instead of the spear in that video. I'll even forgiven that now you've stepped back even further from the subsistence agriculture thing to hunting-and-gathering. Maybe humanity should crawl back into the ocean and become fish too... that's how we'll beat extinction.
- defrost 4mo ago
  > Actually, I know alot more about this than you do. So you say. > Do you think you could make a plow or use it, supposing you had a mule to go with it? What, another one? We used oxen and draught horses rather than mules. > you think just anyone could construct or procure a plow in the Mad Max wastelands, I live in Australia, I know where many working old ploughs are - most of the farms here still have them on display - there are several on this very property. > Now we're back to "can you make a rope? Sure - been there, down that, have you? Look, this is getting dull - I'm 70, I grew up in a remote location, my father, still alive, born in 1935, fed his family as a child while his father was away at war - I've often spent months in remote areas. In the event of the collapse of the modern US tech sphere some humans will get by, others will not.

triceratops 4mo ago

> when none of their ancestors for how many generations [farmed] Because they'd still have books and seeds and farming implements lying around? And maybe some actual farmers to learn from? > What if they get it wrong, they'll starve? Probably, yeah many will starve. Early English settlers in North America had very little farming experience and many died. Enough survived to build colonies.

bombcar 4mo ago

They don't need to reinvent it - the Amish are doing it right now to some variation of "Amish on a tractor" if you want. Insisting that negative population growth necessarily means extinction is as silly as saying that positive population growth necessarily means people standing on people from coast to coast.