3 ms·

It's been super eye-opening to me as an adult how frequent misdiagnoses are. I understand it's good for a doctor to sound confident, but "confidently wrong" is

It's been super eye-opening to me as an adult how frequent misdiagnoses are. I understand it's good for a doctor to sound confident, but "confidently wrong" is imo much worse than "cautiously wrong". We really need better imaging/diagnostic tools that cut down on human bias; hoping for a star trek tricorder someday.

trebligdivad 4mo ago
You do have to worry/wonder how many people are in psych hospitals, jail, or 6ft under when something like this might be the reason.
WarmWash 4mo ago
The part that doctors see that individuals don't is the flood of people who are chronically freaking out over nothing. There are going to be casualties of doctor's triage, and those stories will be beyond upsetting, but most would agree its better than an 8 month wait to get an MRI.
- TaupeRanger 4mo ago
  Right. For every example of a doctor missing a diagnosis, there 100 examples of that doctor correctly telling people that they are likely suffering from a temporary condition that will work itself out or not be resolved by any further testing or medicine.
- s5300 4mo ago
  [dead]
- sheepolog 4mo ago
  All the more reason to have better diagnostic tools (not to mention faster imaging)! All humans are fallible; I hope one day diagnosis is the easiest part of a doctor's job.
  - haldujai 4mo ago
    You’re assuming a diagnostic test can be designed for 100% accuracy and this is not possible as disease states are spectrums not discrete categories. “Normal ranges” in lab values are just confidence intervals of population means which by definition that some normal people will have abnormal values and some patients with a disease will have normal values. The same is true for imaging. For example we use size criteria a lot. There is nothing different about 4.1 cm adrenal nodules and 3.9 cm nodules to explain why the former gets surgery and the latter gets called benign other than pre-test probability and acceptable false positive and false negative rates, whether this is measured by a human or AI.
    - sheepolog 4mo ago
      Eventually, diagnostic systems (whether AI or human+AI) will significantly outperform current human doctors. If humans have different normal ranges, then the tests will be specific to the individual, based on their health history, DNA, tissue simulation in digital environment, etc. If adrenal nodules of similar diameter behave differently, then the tests will inspect more than just diameter. The data to make the correct diagnosis is out there, we just don't have the tools or processing power to use it yet.
      - haldujai 4mo ago
        You’re loosely alluding to personalized medicine but envisioning is a very futuristic state we are very slowly moving towards. What you suggest is great but we are a few decades and several technological breakthroughs as well as new discoveries away from coming to what you are talking. DNA is increasingly used in oncology, but is difficult to interpret elsewhere and in many tumors is not insightful. > The data to make the correct diagnosis is out there, we just don't have the tools or processing power to use it yet. Maybe, but we don’t know what or how to measure it. > If adrenal nodules of similar diameter behave differently, then the tests will inspect more than just diameter. Everything investigated so far such as: biopsies with histology, MR spectroscopy and measuring the diffusivity of water molecules has not been reliable in differentiating benign or malignant nodules so we still use size. These are nontrivial problems. There are technical limitations to our measuring tools.
amatecha 4mo ago
Yeah, I've had to fight to get medication that the doc insisted "doesn't work" - had to cite actual studies that showed blatant results showing effectiveness. The way society has this widespread "appeal to authority" built in around doctors drives me crazy, because they are treated as if they are the ultimate authority on health/medical, but are often woefully under-educated about specific subtle details that can end up being critical to the management/prognosis of a health issue. I have a worsened lifelong issue because of repeated sub-optimal "solutions" to a problem, such that the best long-term solution was found by the THIRD doctor that looked at my problem. "Solutions" from the first two guaranteed my problem will forever be worse than it would have been (solely due to their treatments), if only the third doc's solution had been considered/presented first. Even worse, I was a teenager and young adult when dealing with the first two. My mistake for not doing my own comprehensive research, apparently -- the thing we entrust doctors to do for us...
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
Aurornis 4mo ago
> It's been super eye-opening to me as an adult how frequent misdiagnoses are. I was talking to a specialist in a field where a rare condition has started to trend on TikTok. It was also eye-opening to learn how much they're struggling under the weight of bad referrals for patients who don't have the condition they claim. That's not to say they aren't sick. The patients are suffering from something. However between hours of TikTok and ChatGPT they can convince themselves they have a condition and learn how to convince their primary care doctor to put in the referral This doesn't work as much for conditions that have objective criteria like blood tests, where it's easy to filter out the patients who have both negative blood tests and a PCP who hasn't tried to investigate other explanations. An example of a popular self-diagnosis is MCAS: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. MCAS specialists are overwhelmed by self-diagnosed patients trying to get appointments who have never even have a tryptase blood test. If you go on to any subreddit or forum for chronic health conditions you will find a large number of people there have been convinced they have MCAS, and new members are told they might have MCAS too. This is creating a separate fatigue among providers who need to keep their guard up at all times so they can maintain focus on the patients who really have these conditions instead of letting their schedules get destroyed by patients who don't. It's a hard problem.
- fragmede 4mo ago
  Not to be a capitalist about it, but given the US health care system, and the fact that there's a diagnostic test for it, that sounds like a business opportunity. Setup an intake website where the customer, err, patient, fills out their information, submits their insurance, and answers a questionnaire, and then the teledoc web portal system gives them lab work to do. Charge the patients for the privilege, and also charge the doctors to use this screening process.
  - Aurornis 4mo ago
    > and also charge the doctors to use this screening process. Why would a doctor pay another service to order labs for them? Sadly there are a lot of clinics popping up to serve the internet self-diagnosers, but not in the way you're talking about. They're built around a single enterprising doctor who either believes the disease is undetectable by normal tests, or who is aware that they're stringing patients along but likes the money. If someone opens a specialty clinic for an internet-popular disorder, they have a perpetual line of patients who will gladly pay for a doctor to tell them what they want to hear.

trebligdivad 4mo ago

You do have to worry/wonder how many people are in psych hospitals, jail, or 6ft under when something like this might be the reason.

WarmWash 4mo ago

The part that doctors see that individuals don't is the flood of people who are chronically freaking out over nothing. There are going to be casualties of doctor's triage, and those stories will be beyond upsetting, but most would agree its better than an 8 month wait to get an MRI.

TaupeRanger 4mo ago
Right. For every example of a doctor missing a diagnosis, there 100 examples of that doctor correctly telling people that they are likely suffering from a temporary condition that will work itself out or not be resolved by any further testing or medicine.
s5300 4mo ago
[dead]
sheepolog 4mo ago
All the more reason to have better diagnostic tools (not to mention faster imaging)! All humans are fallible; I hope one day diagnosis is the easiest part of a doctor's job.
- haldujai 4mo ago
  You’re assuming a diagnostic test can be designed for 100% accuracy and this is not possible as disease states are spectrums not discrete categories. “Normal ranges” in lab values are just confidence intervals of population means which by definition that some normal people will have abnormal values and some patients with a disease will have normal values. The same is true for imaging. For example we use size criteria a lot. There is nothing different about 4.1 cm adrenal nodules and 3.9 cm nodules to explain why the former gets surgery and the latter gets called benign other than pre-test probability and acceptable false positive and false negative rates, whether this is measured by a human or AI.
  - sheepolog 4mo ago
    Eventually, diagnostic systems (whether AI or human+AI) will significantly outperform current human doctors. If humans have different normal ranges, then the tests will be specific to the individual, based on their health history, DNA, tissue simulation in digital environment, etc. If adrenal nodules of similar diameter behave differently, then the tests will inspect more than just diameter. The data to make the correct diagnosis is out there, we just don't have the tools or processing power to use it yet.
    - haldujai 4mo ago
      You’re loosely alluding to personalized medicine but envisioning is a very futuristic state we are very slowly moving towards. What you suggest is great but we are a few decades and several technological breakthroughs as well as new discoveries away from coming to what you are talking. DNA is increasingly used in oncology, but is difficult to interpret elsewhere and in many tumors is not insightful. > The data to make the correct diagnosis is out there, we just don't have the tools or processing power to use it yet. Maybe, but we don’t know what or how to measure it. > If adrenal nodules of similar diameter behave differently, then the tests will inspect more than just diameter. Everything investigated so far such as: biopsies with histology, MR spectroscopy and measuring the diffusivity of water molecules has not been reliable in differentiating benign or malignant nodules so we still use size. These are nontrivial problems. There are technical limitations to our measuring tools.

amatecha 4mo ago

Yeah, I've had to fight to get medication that the doc insisted "doesn't work" - had to cite actual studies that showed blatant results showing effectiveness. The way society has this widespread "appeal to authority" built in around doctors drives me crazy, because they are treated as if they are the ultimate authority on health/medical, but are often woefully under-educated about specific subtle details that can end up being critical to the management/prognosis of a health issue. I have a worsened lifelong issue because of repeated sub-optimal "solutions" to a problem, such that the best long-term solution was found by the THIRD doctor that looked at my problem. "Solutions" from the first two guaranteed my problem will forever be worse than it would have been (solely due to their treatments), if only the third doc's solution had been considered/presented first. Even worse, I was a teenager and young adult when dealing with the first two. My mistake for not doing my own comprehensive research, apparently -- the thing we entrust doctors to do for us...

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

Aurornis 4mo ago

> It's been super eye-opening to me as an adult how frequent misdiagnoses are. I was talking to a specialist in a field where a rare condition has started to trend on TikTok. It was also eye-opening to learn how much they're struggling under the weight of bad referrals for patients who don't have the condition they claim. That's not to say they aren't sick. The patients are suffering from something. However between hours of TikTok and ChatGPT they can convince themselves they have a condition and learn how to convince their primary care doctor to put in the referral This doesn't work as much for conditions that have objective criteria like blood tests, where it's easy to filter out the patients who have both negative blood tests and a PCP who hasn't tried to investigate other explanations. An example of a popular self-diagnosis is MCAS: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. MCAS specialists are overwhelmed by self-diagnosed patients trying to get appointments who have never even have a tryptase blood test. If you go on to any subreddit or forum for chronic health conditions you will find a large number of people there have been convinced they have MCAS, and new members are told they might have MCAS too. This is creating a separate fatigue among providers who need to keep their guard up at all times so they can maintain focus on the patients who really have these conditions instead of letting their schedules get destroyed by patients who don't. It's a hard problem.

fragmede 4mo ago
Not to be a capitalist about it, but given the US health care system, and the fact that there's a diagnostic test for it, that sounds like a business opportunity. Setup an intake website where the customer, err, patient, fills out their information, submits their insurance, and answers a questionnaire, and then the teledoc web portal system gives them lab work to do. Charge the patients for the privilege, and also charge the doctors to use this screening process.
- Aurornis 4mo ago
  > and also charge the doctors to use this screening process. Why would a doctor pay another service to order labs for them? Sadly there are a lot of clinics popping up to serve the internet self-diagnosers, but not in the way you're talking about. They're built around a single enterprising doctor who either believes the disease is undetectable by normal tests, or who is aware that they're stringing patients along but likes the money. If someone opens a specialty clinic for an internet-popular disorder, they have a perpetual line of patients who will gladly pay for a doctor to tell them what they want to hear.