4 ms·

Yep. One time my manager did a hour long lecture for our team on how personal growth is important and that we all should expand our horizons and learn new stuf

Yep. One time my manager did a hour long lecture for our team on how personal growth is important and that we all should expand our horizons and learn new stuff. When I tried to reserve 2 hours A WEEK for studying tasks I got push back that I should do it on my own time. It was a complete joke.

consp 4mo ago
This sounds like the "everything you create in your own time is company property since we cannot distinguish if what you do in your own time isn't company related" clause in some contracts. Under no circumstance is it actable where I live, but it can sure scare the hell out of people and presents a line of thought. Yes, some companies think they can own copyright on the things you write at home.
- doubled112 4mo ago
  If my contract says that I must be available immediately at any time, do I have ANY personal time? Or is all of my time their time too?
  - daveshistory 4mo ago
    Absolutely. Your personal time is that time which, in retrospect, the company didn't need you for. It's strictly a backward-looking definition.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4mo ago
  I call that the "shower clause," because the company claims ownership of any ideas you come up with, in the shower. I think, like noncompetes, there's limits to how far the company can actually enforce it, but they bank on the fact that they have lawyers on permanent retainer, and you don't. Even standing up for your rights, against blatant corporate overreach, is expensive.
  - cindyllm 4mo ago
    [dead]
- tripledry 4mo ago
  I always ask companies to remove that clause from contracts, I think all offers I've ever got had that clause, but also 100% removed it on request.
  - ryandrake 4mo ago
    Interesting. I've always asked, too, and 0% were willing to make any changes to their policies. I suppose it has a lot to do with the size of the company and your relative bargaining power.
    - tripledry 4mo ago
      Probably cultural norms and location play a huge role here, I'm in a nordic country and feel like trust is generally high and people are reasonable. My bargaining power is not that high and managed to do this from tiny companies to global corporates.
- Tangurena2 4mo ago
  In the US, the enforceability of that sort of thing depends on the state. Generally, if that state enforces non-competes (other than for selling the business, or managerial staff), then it most likely enforces "you're salaried, so everything you invent belongs to us". The legal term to search is "work for hire".
JTbane 4mo ago
I'm experiencing a similar thing- company pushes online lectures but don't even think about putting them on the sprint board.
belorn 4mo ago
This is when I would look up the nearest course for the subject that the job would want me to study, including the cost, time and travel distance. Talk is always much cheaper than the real thing.
Viliam1234 4mo ago
I wonder what happens when you have kids and you can no longer spend your free time to keep learning new things that your company wants you to know. (Just kidding, I know what happens... they will fire you and hire someone who doesn't have kids.)
- stymaar 4mo ago
  > (Just kidding, I know what happens... they will fire you and hire someone who doesn't have kids.) And then the boss will blame young people for collapsing the demography and endangering the country.
- ramgine 4mo ago
  You either fall behind/into a rut, or like you said, get let go. It’s scary
- rpcope1 4mo ago
  Either get let go, fall behind, or pick up an expensive stimulant habit to try and eek out a little productivity at unholy hours.
crystal_revenge 4mo ago
> When I tried to reserve 2 hours A WEEK for studying tasks I've never understood why employees push for official approval like this. It's not surprising you don't get officially dedicated "study time". The vast majority of programmers aren't hourly anyway, so officially sanctioned study hours doesn't even fit in with how work is prioritized. Not to mention the optics look terrible if your team is ever behind your manager is now in the awkward position have having "non-work" on record as part of what you're getting paid for. Just bring your book with you and read during slow period, when a job is running, model training etc. You're not hourly anyway, so in theory any non-project time is your time anyway. I've never had official permission to study at work about I've also never had any problem studying at work. If you're shipping consistently and high quality nobody is going to care if you're occasionally reading through a book chapter or watching a lecture online.
- frez1 4mo ago
  [dead]
- Windchaser 4mo ago
  > If you're shipping consistently and high quality nobody is going to care if you're occasionally reading through a book chapter or watching a lecture online. Or if they do, it's a toxic workplace.
- hawaiianbrah 4mo ago
  My last employer had a monthly Day of Learning where you could study whatever you want (so long as you could sort of tie it back to work). It was great. They’d organize presentations from employees but you could spend the whole day essentially however you wanted.
  - mystifyingpoi 4mo ago
    > you could spend the whole day essentially however you wanted Then, can I just not go to work on that day? Or am I forced to waste time in the office? Honest question.

consp 4mo ago

This sounds like the "everything you create in your own time is company property since we cannot distinguish if what you do in your own time isn't company related" clause in some contracts. Under no circumstance is it actable where I live, but it can sure scare the hell out of people and presents a line of thought. Yes, some companies think they can own copyright on the things you write at home.

doubled112 4mo ago
If my contract says that I must be available immediately at any time, do I have ANY personal time? Or is all of my time their time too?
- daveshistory 4mo ago
  Absolutely. Your personal time is that time which, in retrospect, the company didn't need you for. It's strictly a backward-looking definition.
ChrisMarshallNY 4mo ago
I call that the "shower clause," because the company claims ownership of any ideas you come up with, in the shower. I think, like noncompetes, there's limits to how far the company can actually enforce it, but they bank on the fact that they have lawyers on permanent retainer, and you don't. Even standing up for your rights, against blatant corporate overreach, is expensive.
- cindyllm 4mo ago
  [dead]
tripledry 4mo ago
I always ask companies to remove that clause from contracts, I think all offers I've ever got had that clause, but also 100% removed it on request.
- ryandrake 4mo ago
  Interesting. I've always asked, too, and 0% were willing to make any changes to their policies. I suppose it has a lot to do with the size of the company and your relative bargaining power.
  - tripledry 4mo ago
    Probably cultural norms and location play a huge role here, I'm in a nordic country and feel like trust is generally high and people are reasonable. My bargaining power is not that high and managed to do this from tiny companies to global corporates.
Tangurena2 4mo ago
In the US, the enforceability of that sort of thing depends on the state. Generally, if that state enforces non-competes (other than for selling the business, or managerial staff), then it most likely enforces "you're salaried, so everything you invent belongs to us". The legal term to search is "work for hire".

JTbane 4mo ago

I'm experiencing a similar thing- company pushes online lectures but don't even think about putting them on the sprint board.

belorn 4mo ago

This is when I would look up the nearest course for the subject that the job would want me to study, including the cost, time and travel distance. Talk is always much cheaper than the real thing.

Viliam1234 4mo ago

I wonder what happens when you have kids and you can no longer spend your free time to keep learning new things that your company wants you to know. (Just kidding, I know what happens... they will fire you and hire someone who doesn't have kids.)

stymaar 4mo ago
> (Just kidding, I know what happens... they will fire you and hire someone who doesn't have kids.) And then the boss will blame young people for collapsing the demography and endangering the country.
ramgine 4mo ago
You either fall behind/into a rut, or like you said, get let go. It’s scary
rpcope1 4mo ago
Either get let go, fall behind, or pick up an expensive stimulant habit to try and eek out a little productivity at unholy hours.

crystal_revenge 4mo ago

> When I tried to reserve 2 hours A WEEK for studying tasks I've never understood why employees push for official approval like this. It's not surprising you don't get officially dedicated "study time". The vast majority of programmers aren't hourly anyway, so officially sanctioned study hours doesn't even fit in with how work is prioritized. Not to mention the optics look terrible if your team is ever behind your manager is now in the awkward position have having "non-work" on record as part of what you're getting paid for. Just bring your book with you and read during slow period, when a job is running, model training etc. You're not hourly anyway, so in theory any non-project time is your time anyway. I've never had official permission to study at work about I've also never had any problem studying at work. If you're shipping consistently and high quality nobody is going to care if you're occasionally reading through a book chapter or watching a lecture online.

frez1 4mo ago
[dead]
Windchaser 4mo ago
> If you're shipping consistently and high quality nobody is going to care if you're occasionally reading through a book chapter or watching a lecture online. Or if they do, it's a toxic workplace.
hawaiianbrah 4mo ago
My last employer had a monthly Day of Learning where you could study whatever you want (so long as you could sort of tie it back to work). It was great. They’d organize presentations from employees but you could spend the whole day essentially however you wanted.
- mystifyingpoi 4mo ago
  > you could spend the whole day essentially however you wanted Then, can I just not go to work on that day? Or am I forced to waste time in the office? Honest question.