4 ms·

There doesn't really seem to be anything of substance in the actual executive order. Section 1 doesn't say anything Section 2 seems to boil down to: "improve

There doesn't really seem to be anything of substance in the actual executive order. Section 1 doesn't say anything Section 2 seems to boil down to: "improve cyber security and maybe use AI if we can find funding for it" Section 3 proposes building a benchmark for evaluating cyber security performance of models that developers can choose to benchmark against. This seems like a good idea, I know Jack Clark has been a huge advocate for government's getting in with benchmarking. Section 4 says to prioritize prosecuting cyber crimes. Not sure why they wouldn't already be prosecuted. Section 5 doesn't say anything

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
culi 4mo ago
Almost a year ago we got EO 14319 or the "Preventing Woke AI in the Federal Government" that explicitly regulated the "ideology" of LLMs. This Executive Order is just an expansion of the existing censorship framework.
- nradov 4mo ago
  There is no actual regulation in EO 14319. It only covers federal government purchasing and vendor management. No one is required to change the "ideology" of an LLM, although they might not be able to sell it to the government. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/07/28/2025-14217/preventing-woke-ai-in-the-federal-government https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/07/28/2025-14...
  - fragmede 4mo ago
    With land desperately trying to recoup their costs on multi-hundred million dollar training runs, those are some very fine hairs you're splitting.
    - nradov 4mo ago
      Which hair is that? My statement was 100% accurate.
      - fragmede 4mo ago
        > No one is required to change the "ideology" of an LLM, although they might not be able to sell it to the government. It takes hundreds of millions of dollars to train a model. If a large customers, the government, says they won't buy it if it doesn't adhere to a set of standards, no one is "required" to change, but it's a pretty heavy hand on the lever. It's like having a job. No one is "required" to have a job, but having one gets you money, and having money is pretty important to modern life.
        nradov 4mo ago
        So what? No business has a legal right to sell their products to the government. The LLM vendors should probably find cheaper, more efficient ways to train their models rather than depending on government contracts. If your business lives or dies based on a single large customer then you don't have a viable business in the first place. I know lots of people who have money but no job.
  - datsci_est_2015 4mo ago
    Might be fair to say it’s setting the tone, though, that if you use “woke” (subjectively defined) ideology in any of your company’s marketing, documentation, or other communications you won’t be considered for government contracts. That’s a major blow for any company given the naked corruption and grift coming from the current admin.
    - culi 4mo ago
      It's not "setting the tone" it says that explicitly and even goes into detail into the implementation of how that is going to be enforced > Implementation. (a) Within 120 days of the date of this order, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), in consultation with the Administrator for Federal Procurement Policy, the Administrator of General Services, and the Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall issue guidance to agencies to implement section 3 of this order. They even say they will review existing contracts > (ii) to the extent practicable and consistent with contract terms, revise existing contracts for LLMs to include the terms specified in subsection (b)(i) of this section; and > (iii) within 90 days of the OMB guidance issued under subsection (a) of this section, adopt procedures to ensure that LLMs procured by the agency comply with the Unbiased AI Principles.
  - matthewdgreen 4mo ago
    Does the First Amendment actually let the US government dictate the types of speech you're allowed to put in your LLM? I mean, a US government that's bound by the Constitution, obviously.
    - nradov 4mo ago
      While that issue hasn't been specifically tested in court yet, the current interpretation of the First Amendment probably wouldn't allow the US government to dictate the types of speech you're allowed to put in your LLM. But federal government purchasing decisions aren't generally bound by the First Amendment. In other words, government officials can generally refuse to purchase your LLM services if they don't like the speech it outputs. So there's no real constitutional concern with this EO. I'm not claiming that this EO is sensible or enforceable, just that it's not prima facie unconstitutional.
  - celdon25 4mo ago
    The specific text reads like a favor to Elon Musk's xAI, since "Truth-seeking" is the buzzword Elon Musk frequently used to talk about Grok: Sec. 3 Unbiased AI Principles. It is the policy of the United States to promote the innovation and use of trustworthy AI. To advance that policy, agency heads shall, consistent with applicable law and in consideration of guidance issued pursuant to section 4 of this order, procure only those LLMs developed in accordance with the following two principles (Unbiased AI Principles): (a) Truth-seeking. LLMs shall be truthful in responding to user prompts seeking factual information or analysis. LLMs shall prioritize historical accuracy, scientific inquiry, and objectivity, and shall acknowledge uncertainty where reliable information is incomplete or contradictory. (b) Ideological Neutrality. LLMs shall be neutral, nonpartisan tools that do not manipulate responses in favor of ideological dogmas such as DEI. Developers shall not intentionally encode partisan or ideological judgments into an LLM's outputs unless those judgments are prompted by or otherwise readily accessible to the end user.
  - culi 4mo ago
    That's not accurate. The EO explicitly lays out the implementation > Sec. 4. Implementation. (a) Within 120 days of the date of this order, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), in consultation with the Administrator for Federal Procurement Policy, the Administrator of General Services, and the Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall issue guidance to agencies to implement section 3 of this order. A major LLM that did not submit to this would be labeled a "supply chain risk". It's unquestionable that every major LLM would go through this process It even then goes on to say that existing contracts will be reviewed to ensure they are in compliance (reviewed by OMB) > (b) Each agency head shall, to the maximum extent consistent with applicable law: > (i) include in each Federal contract for an LLM entered into following the date of the OMB guidance issued under subsection (a) of this section terms requiring that the procured LLM comply with the Unbiased AI Principles and providing that decommissioning costs shall be charged to the vendor in the event of termination by the agency for the vendor’s noncompliance with the contract following a reasonable period to cure; > (ii) to the extent practicable and consistent with contract terms, revise existing contracts for LLMs to include the terms specified in subsection (b)(i) of this section; and > (iii) within 90 days of the OMB guidance issued under subsection (a) of this section, adopt procedures to ensure that LLMs procured by the agency comply with the Unbiased AI Principles.
    - nradov 4mo ago
      Wrong. My comment was 100% accurate. No LLM vendor is legally required to change their ideology, nor does the EO constitute new regulation.
      - lompad 4mo ago
        Not technically but practically. The decrees are effectively considered law by the executive. Yes, you'll likely win in court later on, but you'll lose your job, get sent to prison, have your bank accounts and vehicle seized, etc., in the meantime. Legality isn't really of much practical concern anymore. It's about what gets/can be enforced immediately.
        4mo ago
dmoy 4mo ago
> Section 4 says to prioritize prosecuting cyber crimes. Not sure why they wouldn't already be prosecuted. Not a whole lot of federal prosecutors. They're very selective about what gets pursued or not. If they can't reliably build cases with a >90% success rate, it doesn't get prioritized. There's like <500 (federal) convictions per year on this whole area. We hear about a few big famous ones in the news here, but most of it goes completely unenforced.
- saghm 4mo ago
  > Not a whole lot of federal prosecutors. They're very selective about what gets pursued or not. And lately they seem to spend most of their time in courts trying to argue that immigrants don't deserve due process
  - tpurves 4mo ago
    Not to mention quitting in droves because very many don't want to take these cases or otherwise to stand in court and explain why current admin is not bound by existing laws, court orders, the US constitution in general, or internationally recognized human rights etc.
    - saghm 4mo ago
      Yep, or even asking to be held in contempt because, in their own words, "This job sucks": https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/attorney-government-tells-judge-ice-case-job-sucks-rcna257349 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/attorney...
      - DaSHacka 4mo ago
        If a federal prosecutor doesn't want to prosecute federal crimes, it's probably best for both themselves and their country if they find themselves a new job.
        shigawire 4mo ago
anigbrowl 4mo ago
That seems to be the hallmark of this administration.
- dmix 4mo ago
  I’ve read lots of executive orders and it’s pretty standard. They don’t have much power. They are mostly just mandates and guidance for federal agencies, most of which is non binding, like a glorified mission statement. They just get sold as something bigger in the press.
  - pkulak 4mo ago
    Most voters don’t understand how the US government works, so EOs seem to be a way to pretend that the executive can pass laws. A way to make good on the campaign promises that require laws to be passed, which is usually all of them.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

culi 4mo ago

Almost a year ago we got EO 14319 or the "Preventing Woke AI in the Federal Government" that explicitly regulated the "ideology" of LLMs. This Executive Order is just an expansion of the existing censorship framework.

nradov 4mo ago
There is no actual regulation in EO 14319. It only covers federal government purchasing and vendor management. No one is required to change the "ideology" of an LLM, although they might not be able to sell it to the government. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/07/28/2025-14217/preventing-woke-ai-in-the-federal-government https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/07/28/2025-14...
- fragmede 4mo ago
  With land desperately trying to recoup their costs on multi-hundred million dollar training runs, those are some very fine hairs you're splitting.
  - nradov 4mo ago
    Which hair is that? My statement was 100% accurate.
    - fragmede 4mo ago
      > No one is required to change the "ideology" of an LLM, although they might not be able to sell it to the government. It takes hundreds of millions of dollars to train a model. If a large customers, the government, says they won't buy it if it doesn't adhere to a set of standards, no one is "required" to change, but it's a pretty heavy hand on the lever. It's like having a job. No one is "required" to have a job, but having one gets you money, and having money is pretty important to modern life.
      - nradov 4mo ago
        So what? No business has a legal right to sell their products to the government. The LLM vendors should probably find cheaper, more efficient ways to train their models rather than depending on government contracts. If your business lives or dies based on a single large customer then you don't have a viable business in the first place. I know lots of people who have money but no job.
- datsci_est_2015 4mo ago
  Might be fair to say it’s setting the tone, though, that if you use “woke” (subjectively defined) ideology in any of your company’s marketing, documentation, or other communications you won’t be considered for government contracts. That’s a major blow for any company given the naked corruption and grift coming from the current admin.
  - culi 4mo ago
    It's not "setting the tone" it says that explicitly and even goes into detail into the implementation of how that is going to be enforced > Implementation. (a) Within 120 days of the date of this order, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), in consultation with the Administrator for Federal Procurement Policy, the Administrator of General Services, and the Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall issue guidance to agencies to implement section 3 of this order. They even say they will review existing contracts > (ii) to the extent practicable and consistent with contract terms, revise existing contracts for LLMs to include the terms specified in subsection (b)(i) of this section; and > (iii) within 90 days of the OMB guidance issued under subsection (a) of this section, adopt procedures to ensure that LLMs procured by the agency comply with the Unbiased AI Principles.
- matthewdgreen 4mo ago
  Does the First Amendment actually let the US government dictate the types of speech you're allowed to put in your LLM? I mean, a US government that's bound by the Constitution, obviously.
  - nradov 4mo ago
    While that issue hasn't been specifically tested in court yet, the current interpretation of the First Amendment probably wouldn't allow the US government to dictate the types of speech you're allowed to put in your LLM. But federal government purchasing decisions aren't generally bound by the First Amendment. In other words, government officials can generally refuse to purchase your LLM services if they don't like the speech it outputs. So there's no real constitutional concern with this EO. I'm not claiming that this EO is sensible or enforceable, just that it's not prima facie unconstitutional.
- celdon25 4mo ago
  The specific text reads like a favor to Elon Musk's xAI, since "Truth-seeking" is the buzzword Elon Musk frequently used to talk about Grok: Sec. 3 Unbiased AI Principles. It is the policy of the United States to promote the innovation and use of trustworthy AI. To advance that policy, agency heads shall, consistent with applicable law and in consideration of guidance issued pursuant to section 4 of this order, procure only those LLMs developed in accordance with the following two principles (Unbiased AI Principles): (a) Truth-seeking. LLMs shall be truthful in responding to user prompts seeking factual information or analysis. LLMs shall prioritize historical accuracy, scientific inquiry, and objectivity, and shall acknowledge uncertainty where reliable information is incomplete or contradictory. (b) Ideological Neutrality. LLMs shall be neutral, nonpartisan tools that do not manipulate responses in favor of ideological dogmas such as DEI. Developers shall not intentionally encode partisan or ideological judgments into an LLM's outputs unless those judgments are prompted by or otherwise readily accessible to the end user.
- culi 4mo ago
  That's not accurate. The EO explicitly lays out the implementation > Sec. 4. Implementation. (a) Within 120 days of the date of this order, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), in consultation with the Administrator for Federal Procurement Policy, the Administrator of General Services, and the Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, shall issue guidance to agencies to implement section 3 of this order. A major LLM that did not submit to this would be labeled a "supply chain risk". It's unquestionable that every major LLM would go through this process It even then goes on to say that existing contracts will be reviewed to ensure they are in compliance (reviewed by OMB) > (b) Each agency head shall, to the maximum extent consistent with applicable law: > (i) include in each Federal contract for an LLM entered into following the date of the OMB guidance issued under subsection (a) of this section terms requiring that the procured LLM comply with the Unbiased AI Principles and providing that decommissioning costs shall be charged to the vendor in the event of termination by the agency for the vendor’s noncompliance with the contract following a reasonable period to cure; > (ii) to the extent practicable and consistent with contract terms, revise existing contracts for LLMs to include the terms specified in subsection (b)(i) of this section; and > (iii) within 90 days of the OMB guidance issued under subsection (a) of this section, adopt procedures to ensure that LLMs procured by the agency comply with the Unbiased AI Principles.
  - nradov 4mo ago
    Wrong. My comment was 100% accurate. No LLM vendor is legally required to change their ideology, nor does the EO constitute new regulation.
    - lompad 4mo ago
      Not technically but practically. The decrees are effectively considered law by the executive. Yes, you'll likely win in court later on, but you'll lose your job, get sent to prison, have your bank accounts and vehicle seized, etc., in the meantime. Legality isn't really of much practical concern anymore. It's about what gets/can be enforced immediately.
      - 4mo ago

dmoy 4mo ago

> Section 4 says to prioritize prosecuting cyber crimes. Not sure why they wouldn't already be prosecuted. Not a whole lot of federal prosecutors. They're very selective about what gets pursued or not. If they can't reliably build cases with a >90% success rate, it doesn't get prioritized. There's like <500 (federal) convictions per year on this whole area. We hear about a few big famous ones in the news here, but most of it goes completely unenforced.

saghm 4mo ago
> Not a whole lot of federal prosecutors. They're very selective about what gets pursued or not. And lately they seem to spend most of their time in courts trying to argue that immigrants don't deserve due process
- tpurves 4mo ago
  Not to mention quitting in droves because very many don't want to take these cases or otherwise to stand in court and explain why current admin is not bound by existing laws, court orders, the US constitution in general, or internationally recognized human rights etc.
  - saghm 4mo ago
    Yep, or even asking to be held in contempt because, in their own words, "This job sucks": https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/attorney-government-tells-judge-ice-case-job-sucks-rcna257349 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/attorney...
    - DaSHacka 4mo ago
      If a federal prosecutor doesn't want to prosecute federal crimes, it's probably best for both themselves and their country if they find themselves a new job.
      - shigawire 4mo ago

anigbrowl 4mo ago

That seems to be the hallmark of this administration.

dmix 4mo ago
I’ve read lots of executive orders and it’s pretty standard. They don’t have much power. They are mostly just mandates and guidance for federal agencies, most of which is non binding, like a glorified mission statement. They just get sold as something bigger in the press.
- pkulak 4mo ago
  Most voters don’t understand how the US government works, so EOs seem to be a way to pretend that the executive can pass laws. A way to make good on the campaign promises that require laws to be passed, which is usually all of them.