6 ms·

The Surface line is, HW-wise, very good IMHO. Too bad the software is awful. Thankfully the Linux Surface community is pretty strong. Proprietary Microsoft dr

The Surface line is, HW-wise, very good IMHO. Too bad the software is awful. Thankfully the Linux Surface community is pretty strong. Proprietary Microsoft drivers don't make it easy, but we're getting there... https://github.com/linux-surface/surface-pro-x https://github.com/linux-surface/surface-pro-x I'll buy another one if there's some commitment from Microsoft to be more open source friendly, but since this will never happen, they can keep their HW.

jwrallie 5mo ago
Depending on how easy it is to run Linux on this as opposed to the new MacBooks may make this attractive for Linux users. Anyway, the whole trend to change from x86 to Arm on laptops is bad news for compatibility. It might be that the era where you can download an iso and expect Linux to run on a random laptop is over, and Linux users will have to stick to only a couple of devices with well known support. Did Valve release a laptop yet?
- daemin 5mo ago
  One concern I've heard about the move to ARM cores is that it is done in order to lock down the devices more so they're more like a phone rather than a computer.
  - jo-m 5mo ago
    What does locking down the device have to do with the CPU architecture?
    - coffe2mug 5mo ago
      ARM based devices don't have boot anything you want like x86 platform - in practice.
      - chainingsolid 5mo ago
        Adding to this. x86 Most random Linuix ISOs will boot on anything. I've seen software compiled before the hardware had finished being designed boot just fine. (in the latest case lstopo was very confused, but everything still worked!) ARM, I go looking for a build for my chip/device in particular. x86 I just buy hardware and it works, ARM I check for OS builds before buying, and wonder if the builds will continue to get updates.....
  - vbezhenar 5mo ago
    Recent Surface ARM laptops do not seem to be locked in any way.
- N-Krause 5mo ago
  > Depending on how easy it is to run Linux on this as opposed to the new MacBooks may make this attractive for Linux users. Why? Just to get ARM? Buy a brand that actually works with the kernel and distros to get their hardware working with linux. Get your money to the people that actually help the software ecosystem. When you spent premium, put your money where it makes a difference.
  - jwrallie 5mo ago
    For laptops, what I had in mind is excellent power management and efficiency, it seems to correlate with ARM but I think most people don’t really care for the details of architecture.
    - schmorptron 5mo ago
      the new intel ultra whatevername 3 series seems to come a bit closer there, so the framework pro with its explicit linux support might be an option
  - literallywho 5mo ago
    I recently spent an equivalent of MacBook Air M4 price + import tax to get a linux laptop called Starlabs Horizon that advertises up to 14 hours of battery life. Maybe in a TTY it could do that, but in practice, I haven't yet seen any x86 laptops from any company, linux or not, to match even 50% of a macbook's battery. Realistically it's 4-5 hours like the rest of them. Not to mention that for that money I got a cpu that is a power equivalent of pre-M1 chip mac. Also they put speaker grills at the bottom (what were they thinking??)
tw04 5mo ago
I get it’s not what you’re asking for, but WSL on windows is a lot more friendly than anything Apple has done in the last decade to assist in Linux support.
- micromacrofoot 5mo ago
  Apple doesn't have to do anything because it's already unix
  - tw04 5mo ago
    Which doesn’t make it Linux, which is what op wants. It’s based on a BSD-based mach kernel. You might as well say someone asking for Linux should just run Irix, because hey, it’s UNIX!
    - t-3 5mo ago
      Who cares about the kernel? That only matters for hardware support, which is going to be much better with macOS on mac hardware. Macs can easily run 99%+ of the software that people use linux for, because *nix. The only real reasons to require linux in this situation are ideological (free software/GPL vs proprietary Apple) and aesthetic (you're used to X/wayland/systemd/whatever system software and don't like Apple's solution). It would definitely be nice if Apple helped people out by documenting and releasing source for the bootloader and firmware to make it easier to install third-party OSes on their hardware... but they're not a hacker-hobbyist nonprofit doing it for the love, so why would they?
    - micromacrofoot 5mo ago
      well it's a hell of a lot closer than wsl
      - int_19h 5mo ago
        WSL is literally the Linux kernel running in a VM, so WSL is actually closer. But you can have a Linux kernel running in a VM on macOS as well, and while it doesn't have something like WSL built-in, it provides enough foundation for others to build it: https://lima-vm.io/docs/ https://lima-vm.io/docs/
dangus 5mo ago
I really hope for competition’s sake that Microsoft makes some reforms and cleans up Windows. Because us nerds like to say “the software is awful,” but really, the bones of Windows are not awful at all. It generally works well, it just takes a lot of work to get all of the BS out of your way. If you’re looking for open source friendly, just buy a Framework 13 Pro and be done with it. By the way, the other news from Computex is Dell and HP’s Macbook Neo competition, and they really look legit. So, Apple is waking up the PC industry a bit, showing them that they are endangered. Hopefully Microsoft gets the memo.
- denysvitali 5mo ago
  No, Windows is awful. Closed source , buggy and filled with performance bottlenecks. Let's not even talk about the whole requirement for a Microsoft account, TPM or the fact that it's basically a spyware with ads. Why the hell would I want a Candy Crush Soda ad in my OS?!!!
  - dangus 5mo ago
    But that’s what I’m saying: don’t equate ads and other BS with the architectural basis of the OS. The ads and the junk can be removed and I’m hoping Microsoft decides to clean those types of elements up as they face pressure from competitors. Buggy and filled with performance bottlenecks? I don’t really agree with that. I would challenge a user in a blind test running full screen apps to tell the difference between the three major operating systems. TPM isn’t something to get hung up on. I use it with Linux. Having some way to ensure system integrity is a feature of all major modern operating systems. The vast majority of people would never install an OS on their own, so this is an issue that doesn’t affect anyone relatively speaking. The average person only upgrades their Windows OS when they buy a new computer.
ActorNightly 5mo ago
>Too bad the software is awful. I swear, people just live in their echochambers these days. Win 11 pro + WSL2 is literally the best, do it all OS you can get these days. Most peoples experience is with Windows home, which ironically is about as intrusive as Mac OS. When you get Windows Pro, you can disable all the annoying AI/Advertising shit that comes with Windows, and at that point, you get a system that is cleaner than Mac OS. Then you install WSL2, which is a full linux environment down to being able to run graphical apps, use gpus natively, and even talk to usb ports. Ive been on Win11 Pro for 4 years. The only major things that are installed under windows for me are VPN Software, Steam (with games), Ollama, and Browser. Everything else, I run under WSL2.
- dartharva 5mo ago
  [flagged]
- HexDecOctBin 5mo ago
  > you can disable all the annoying AI/Advertising shit What Stockholm Syndrome is this? Why should you have to do this in the first place?
  - ActorNightly 5mo ago
    Are you pretending that Apple doesn't spam you with endless advertisements?
    - HexDecOctBin 5mo ago
      Wouldn't know.
    - VerifiedReports 5mo ago
      They don't. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't use a Mac.
      - halffullbrain 5mo ago
xyst 5mo ago
And you lost me at proprietary Microsoft drivers. No way I am spending any money on this future brick.
- denysvitali 5mo ago
  I mean, between Qualcomm proprietary drivers and Microsoft, I don't know what's worse. Thanks god reverse engineering with AI is a thing now, so the path forward looks nicer. But still... Anyways, the Surface Pro X is such a nice HW. Too bad the company who built it is so bad.
wolvesechoes 5mo ago
> Too bad the software is awful. Thankfully the Linux Surface community is pretty strong. And how Linux fix the software problem?
- denysvitali 5mo ago
  Running Linux on Surface works. It's not perfect, but it solves the problem. Windows is gone from my Surface Pro X since roughly 2 months after buying it. https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface

jwrallie 5mo ago

Depending on how easy it is to run Linux on this as opposed to the new MacBooks may make this attractive for Linux users. Anyway, the whole trend to change from x86 to Arm on laptops is bad news for compatibility. It might be that the era where you can download an iso and expect Linux to run on a random laptop is over, and Linux users will have to stick to only a couple of devices with well known support. Did Valve release a laptop yet?

daemin 5mo ago
One concern I've heard about the move to ARM cores is that it is done in order to lock down the devices more so they're more like a phone rather than a computer.
- jo-m 5mo ago
  What does locking down the device have to do with the CPU architecture?
  - coffe2mug 5mo ago
    ARM based devices don't have boot anything you want like x86 platform - in practice.
    - chainingsolid 5mo ago
      Adding to this. x86 Most random Linuix ISOs will boot on anything. I've seen software compiled before the hardware had finished being designed boot just fine. (in the latest case lstopo was very confused, but everything still worked!) ARM, I go looking for a build for my chip/device in particular. x86 I just buy hardware and it works, ARM I check for OS builds before buying, and wonder if the builds will continue to get updates.....
- vbezhenar 5mo ago
  Recent Surface ARM laptops do not seem to be locked in any way.
N-Krause 5mo ago
> Depending on how easy it is to run Linux on this as opposed to the new MacBooks may make this attractive for Linux users. Why? Just to get ARM? Buy a brand that actually works with the kernel and distros to get their hardware working with linux. Get your money to the people that actually help the software ecosystem. When you spent premium, put your money where it makes a difference.
- jwrallie 5mo ago
  For laptops, what I had in mind is excellent power management and efficiency, it seems to correlate with ARM but I think most people don’t really care for the details of architecture.
  - schmorptron 5mo ago
    the new intel ultra whatevername 3 series seems to come a bit closer there, so the framework pro with its explicit linux support might be an option
- literallywho 5mo ago
  I recently spent an equivalent of MacBook Air M4 price + import tax to get a linux laptop called Starlabs Horizon that advertises up to 14 hours of battery life. Maybe in a TTY it could do that, but in practice, I haven't yet seen any x86 laptops from any company, linux or not, to match even 50% of a macbook's battery. Realistically it's 4-5 hours like the rest of them. Not to mention that for that money I got a cpu that is a power equivalent of pre-M1 chip mac. Also they put speaker grills at the bottom (what were they thinking??)

tw04 5mo ago

I get it’s not what you’re asking for, but WSL on windows is a lot more friendly than anything Apple has done in the last decade to assist in Linux support.

micromacrofoot 5mo ago
Apple doesn't have to do anything because it's already unix
- tw04 5mo ago
  Which doesn’t make it Linux, which is what op wants. It’s based on a BSD-based mach kernel. You might as well say someone asking for Linux should just run Irix, because hey, it’s UNIX!
  - t-3 5mo ago
    Who cares about the kernel? That only matters for hardware support, which is going to be much better with macOS on mac hardware. Macs can easily run 99%+ of the software that people use linux for, because *nix. The only real reasons to require linux in this situation are ideological (free software/GPL vs proprietary Apple) and aesthetic (you're used to X/wayland/systemd/whatever system software and don't like Apple's solution). It would definitely be nice if Apple helped people out by documenting and releasing source for the bootloader and firmware to make it easier to install third-party OSes on their hardware... but they're not a hacker-hobbyist nonprofit doing it for the love, so why would they?
  - micromacrofoot 5mo ago
    well it's a hell of a lot closer than wsl
    - int_19h 5mo ago
      WSL is literally the Linux kernel running in a VM, so WSL is actually closer. But you can have a Linux kernel running in a VM on macOS as well, and while it doesn't have something like WSL built-in, it provides enough foundation for others to build it: https://lima-vm.io/docs/ https://lima-vm.io/docs/

dangus 5mo ago

I really hope for competition’s sake that Microsoft makes some reforms and cleans up Windows. Because us nerds like to say “the software is awful,” but really, the bones of Windows are not awful at all. It generally works well, it just takes a lot of work to get all of the BS out of your way. If you’re looking for open source friendly, just buy a Framework 13 Pro and be done with it. By the way, the other news from Computex is Dell and HP’s Macbook Neo competition, and they really look legit. So, Apple is waking up the PC industry a bit, showing them that they are endangered. Hopefully Microsoft gets the memo.

denysvitali 5mo ago
No, Windows is awful. Closed source , buggy and filled with performance bottlenecks. Let's not even talk about the whole requirement for a Microsoft account, TPM or the fact that it's basically a spyware with ads. Why the hell would I want a Candy Crush Soda ad in my OS?!!!
- dangus 5mo ago
  But that’s what I’m saying: don’t equate ads and other BS with the architectural basis of the OS. The ads and the junk can be removed and I’m hoping Microsoft decides to clean those types of elements up as they face pressure from competitors. Buggy and filled with performance bottlenecks? I don’t really agree with that. I would challenge a user in a blind test running full screen apps to tell the difference between the three major operating systems. TPM isn’t something to get hung up on. I use it with Linux. Having some way to ensure system integrity is a feature of all major modern operating systems. The vast majority of people would never install an OS on their own, so this is an issue that doesn’t affect anyone relatively speaking. The average person only upgrades their Windows OS when they buy a new computer.

ActorNightly 5mo ago

>Too bad the software is awful. I swear, people just live in their echochambers these days. Win 11 pro + WSL2 is literally the best, do it all OS you can get these days. Most peoples experience is with Windows home, which ironically is about as intrusive as Mac OS. When you get Windows Pro, you can disable all the annoying AI/Advertising shit that comes with Windows, and at that point, you get a system that is cleaner than Mac OS. Then you install WSL2, which is a full linux environment down to being able to run graphical apps, use gpus natively, and even talk to usb ports. Ive been on Win11 Pro for 4 years. The only major things that are installed under windows for me are VPN Software, Steam (with games), Ollama, and Browser. Everything else, I run under WSL2.

dartharva 5mo ago
[flagged]
HexDecOctBin 5mo ago
> you can disable all the annoying AI/Advertising shit What Stockholm Syndrome is this? Why should you have to do this in the first place?
- ActorNightly 5mo ago
  Are you pretending that Apple doesn't spam you with endless advertisements?
  - HexDecOctBin 5mo ago
    Wouldn't know.
  - VerifiedReports 5mo ago
    They don't. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't use a Mac.
    - halffullbrain 5mo ago

xyst 5mo ago

And you lost me at proprietary Microsoft drivers. No way I am spending any money on this future brick.

denysvitali 5mo ago
I mean, between Qualcomm proprietary drivers and Microsoft, I don't know what's worse. Thanks god reverse engineering with AI is a thing now, so the path forward looks nicer. But still... Anyways, the Surface Pro X is such a nice HW. Too bad the company who built it is so bad.

wolvesechoes 5mo ago

> Too bad the software is awful. Thankfully the Linux Surface community is pretty strong. And how Linux fix the software problem?

denysvitali 5mo ago
Running Linux on Surface works. It's not perfect, but it solves the problem. Windows is gone from my Surface Pro X since roughly 2 months after buying it. https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface