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Ask HN: What do developers want from an equity-only job?

• tptacek 18y ago
  The other word for "equity-only job" is "founder".
  • vaksel 18y ago
    not with the requirements they are asking, which tells you that the equity stake will be some measly amount * Have at least 1 year of experience with Ruby / Rails. * Have experience with MySQL and JavaScript * Enjoy working in a startup environment
    • tptacek 18y ago
      Oh. The other title they might be looking for is "sucker".
      • JayNeely 18y ago
        :-/ Insults aren't appreciated when I'm posting a question about how to make sure we're offering value to people. Unless this became digg when I wasn't looking, and insults are cool as long as they're funny?
        • tptacek 18y ago
          My constructive advice on how to offer value to someone you bring on as a key developer is, pay them. What's the range of equity you were thinking of offering this person?
        • ryanwaggoner 18y ago
          Ironic, because the very low bar for qualified applicants to be your "lead developer" screams that you're looking for a code monkey to take advantage of, which most people on here probably find insulting.
        • gamache 18y ago
          You want to offer value? Pay your fucking employees.
        • the_pepsi_can 18y ago
          I agree with the concept that you can not get an intelligent engineer to work for equity only with out become a founding member. However, I disagree with the notion that it is simply because of the lack of a fancy title. It is because of the level of sacrifice one has to make. Ones livelihood becomes intrinsically tied to the success of the company. Additionally the work load would be somewhat equivalent to the other founding members. Any reasonable person then would conclude that they should reap the same rewards as the other members.
          • swombat 18y ago
            However, I disagree with the notion that it is simply because of the lack of a fancy title. It's nothing to do with the title. It's to do with the level of equity involved. Someone with 2% equity is a sucker. Someone with 30% equity (in a 3-people start-up) is a founder. If you're looking to hire someone who has the ability to pull a whole start-up out of their ass (through their competence and extremely hard work), then it means they could just as well work on their own start-up (where they'd have 100% equity). So why should they join you, unless you're offering a significant portion of ownership and you add value to that start-up equivalent to your share ownership?
    • JayNeely 18y ago
      The requirements aren't an indication of equity, at all. We're looking for someone who's skilled, not necessarily experienced. Room to grow and a chance to prove yourself is one of the opportunities a startup offers, after all.
      • tptacek 18y ago
        For a person who can walk in the door as a key developer, there are plenty of paying projects that can make the same promises...
      • ryanwaggoner 18y ago
        We're looking for someone who's skilled, not necessarily experienced. Are you sure you have the ability to differentiate between the two? On the whole, I'm pretty skeptical of startups that have no revenue or funding and are looking for an equity-only lead developer. It sounds like a bunch of non-technical people trying to get a code monkey for a few percent. Hopefully I'm wrong.
      • Harkins 18y ago
        The requirements don't, however, say that growing and proving one's self will result in increased equity. In programming, usually you have a first job where you grow and prove yourself, and then go get a job for a significantly increased income.
      • swombat 18y ago
        If the guy is going to be your technology lead, and he's a founder, then he's clearly your cofounder CTO. You might want to read this article I wrote on the subject of technology recruitment in early start-ups. http://inter-sections.net/2008/09/03/technology-recruitment-in-an-early-start-up http://inter-sections.net/2008/09/03/technology-recruitment-... If you don't have anyone on your current founder team capable of building the product, you don't have a start-up yet. This guy, if/when you find him, will change that. I suggest equal equity with you.
      • bprater 18y ago
        Bringing in someone who doesn't have years of experience is going to bite you later on. (I say this from experience: I was co-founder of a tech company in '99 and I simply didn't have the experience to build the foundation cleanly.) These folks can come in with half-cocked knowledge and leave you with a trail of misery later on. Leave the opportunity for hired guns the lead brings in. The lead needs to be experienced.
• pclark 18y ago
  do you mean equity online = no pay?
  • fallen 18y ago
    pretty sure he means equity = no pay now = partial ownership of the company = more pay, more control later
    • pclark 18y ago
      assuming they get revenues/funding in the future.
• pclark 18y ago
  err, # Have at least 1 year of experience with Ruby / Rails. # Have experience with MySQL and JavaScript If you're really seeking a lead developer - I'd change that to at least 5 years of developing web apps, with around 3 in ruby.
  • fallen 18y ago
    maybe my mistake, i went from engineering founder to "lead developer" as that is my role in my 9-5. i imagine that they are looking for a founder who runs the engineering side of the house, not just a lead dev. the positions are probably similar, but not he same.
  • gaius 18y ago
    There are people around now who can legitimately claim 15 years professional web experience. This isn't the 1990s - the bar to claim to be "experienced" is as high as it ever was in the pre-web development world.
  • mpk 18y ago
    > If you're really seeking a lead developer - I'd change that to at least 5 years of developing web apps, with around 3 in ruby. Oh pfffff, I say. If you're hiring someone to do something they've already done before, you're missing the point. We took on a Haskell programmer to lead our C# development side, a network hacker to lead our JavaScript work and a (CS) student to lead our Java application server side. I strongly suggest you re-define what you're looking for in a 'lead developer'. Ability, talent, enthusiasm and team-management are high on my list.
    • kaens 18y ago
      Well sure, but it seems to me that if someone is already competent in haskell, or has done some serious networking work on their own, then they've already demonstrated that they're worth hiring, and that they'll probably be able to work with whatever you need them to. This is different than looking for someone with 1 year of experience in ruby. The combination of short amount of time and some conflation of ruby and ruby-on-rails in the general populace could lead to a whole lot of incompetent (or inexperienced enough that it would drag the whole project down) devs being attracted to the job. That is not to say that I think that 5 years of experience developing web apps and 3 in ruby is much of a better metric - as you said, (demonstrated) ability, talent, and enthusiasm are much more important than x years in y.
• fallen 18y ago
  i am a lead developer on both projects on which i get paid a salary (my 9-5) and on a number of projects that i work for equity (the rest of the time). for me, between the two positions, as a lead developer, my roles and responsibilities are pretty similar. i have influence over the hiring, the design, technologies used, engineering, timelines and deliverables. therefore, the things that would attract me to an equity position is an inspiring team, an inspiring team leader, and a strong sense that we will succeed after having met and talked to the team. and not just success ten years later, but success within the stated timeline of startup. i hate release delays like i hate long meetings.
  • tptacek 18y ago
    Curious: has any part-time project you took for equity ever come close to panning out? Have any of them totally cratered? Have you ever gotten screwed over?
    • fallen 18y ago
      two have cratered, two are in the process of "working-out" and look promising if slow. one happens to be my own pet-project of many years, so i am the equity. never been screwed. you?
      • tptacek 18y ago
        I've done it once, as a favor. It went nowhere.
        • fallen 18y ago
          I think (from having tried it) that doing it as "a favor" isn't going to make the cut. One of the reasons my first two fail is that our team simply didn't have the dedication and wasn't able to find the sheer hour count to sink into the project. I think one thing a lot of people on the thread are expressing is that if you want to join an equity project, you want to give it your all, because otherwise its not going to work out for you. And if you "all" is being rewarded with piddly equity (not founder status, not CTO), then ... well, you just aren't interested or aren't really going to give anywhere as near as much as you could. The other crater was for other reasons.
• ryanwaggoner 18y ago
  When I was doing freelance development, I had about one pitch per week for an opportunity like this. I never accepted, even though a lot of the ideas and even teams sounded solid. There were usually several reasons, but they boiled down them not offering enough equity. These "startups" were almost always pretty-non-technical founders offering 1-2% premoney for a "lead developer" position. In my view, the very fact that they felt that the technical development of a web startup was only worth a couple percent spoke volumes. My advice: if you're looking for a skilled lead developer for a software startup, consider them an equal founder and split the pie accordingly.
• lbrandy 18y ago
  Here's my initial concerns, reading your post and reading your posting on craigslist. You need avoid looking like a business guy with an idea (and without a clue) looking for a coder. I'd work very, very hard to avoid that because technical people will avoid you like the plague. 1. How many other team members are there? This is a website we are building, right? What are all these other people doing to earn their equity? Am I the only technical person? Be honest, how much would I -really- need your non-technical staff to build and run this site on my own? 2. Why am I not a founder? Why is this a "job"? Do I have a boss? Who is it? Why do I need one? Can I be fired? 3. If I am the only technical person, do I have full control of the technology? If I tell you that going with Ruby was an awful idea, are you going to listen? If you are, I really should be the CTO. If you aren't, then it sounds like I have a boss. 4. How much equity are we talking about? Do you think you can get a "coder" to build your website and add your features for a few % equity? Do you guys really understand how much you need a technical person? Or am I going to be viewed like an employee by a bunch of business guys with an "idea"? Are coders a commodity to you? 5. If I was taking an equity-only job, it would be for founder-level only. Anything else, in my mind, would be silly. If this is -not- the case, you need to make it extremely compelling and work very hard at avoiding all the pitfalls, because you are already fighting the most difficult uphill battle there is. ETA: it took me awhile to write this, but even now, you'll see alot of posts by devs already "raging" against this concept as a bunch of "business guys" who appear to be severely underestimating and undervaluing technical contributes whilst simultaneously overvaluing their own contributions. If this is -not- the case, you have to work extremely hard because that's going to be the default position all technical people take.
  • swombat 18y ago
    3. If I am the only technical person, do I have full control of the technology? If I tell you that going with Ruby was an awful idea, are you going to listen? If you are, I really should be the CTO. If you aren't, then it sounds like I have a boss. And that boss is the CTO. If they're not qualified to be a CTO, then I would run.
    • fallen 18y ago
      if that is the case, then it should be clear in the job posting whether you are the CTO, software architect, lead developer or just an unfortunate code monkey at the bottom of the heap.
• deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
• raffi 18y ago
  I worked with one startup on an equity only basis, and it didn't even finish getting started. Here are some of my thoughts on what you're asking: 1. You are a startup that isn't even started yet. No matter how many pieces are in place, there are many opportunities for it to go wrong. Remember this when you expect someone else to invest into your vision. The risk/reward should be there. 2. Consider starting someone out working in a low commitment/low risk way. i.e. take someone with potential and pay them to do some stuff. This will make it easier to recruit this someone and give them a chance to find out how they like working with you and if they buy into your vision. The startup I did some consulting for consisted of people I already knew and I felt they had a pretty solid model. Overall though it hasn't "started up" yet because they got in their own way. 3. Consider giving away equity for a very well scoped deliverable. With the startup I worked with, I took a small slice of equity in exchange for working with them to create a product functional specification and to deliver on that spec as-is. I liked this arrangement because it limited my commitment to them and they liked it because it tied my slice to a deliverable. Overall it comes down to this: let them date you before deciding they want to marry you. Don't go on a first date expecting it to turn into marriage. P.S. for your job ad, this analogy carries over there as well. Emphasize what you bring to the relationship and less about the expectations you have from them. Good luck!
• theBobMcCormick 18y ago
  IMHO, the thing to consider is that anyone worth bringing in as the technical lead for a startup that's in as early a phase as your seems to be would ALSO be someone who's quite capable of starting their own startup. You need to be able to explain to your candidate why they should bust their butt without pay on your startup, instead of working on their own startup. As many others on this thread have pointed out, offering a full founder/CTO position should do it.
• benn 18y ago
  A salary. Lulz.
• wehriam 18y ago
  There are two types of people who would attempt to work full time for six months without a salary: 1) A well established developer (read: savings and connections) who would likely request a "founder" level of equity, perhaps even a plurality of shares. 2) A junior developer (read: recent graduate) who may not have the technical acumen to "understand the big-picture, make strategic recommendations for technology decisions, and guide other developers." Further, he may not have the resources to live for six months without a salary. I don't think these are necessarily bad situations, just that your goals seem unrealistically high. To answer your question, I would work for equity if I had an expectation of a market rate salary within a year and a large payout (5-10x yearly salary) within three years. The idea would have to be stellar with a dream team of co-workers. In particular I'd look for access to capital and marketing prowess.
• mpk 18y ago
  "Equity only" sounds like "work for nothing". Everybody has to live off of something. Offer a salary that'll cover rent + noodle money and you'll see a lot of positive responses if you throw in some equity. Or maybe even if you don't. A lot of developers are willing to live on the absolute minimum for a while if you pay them enough to cover rent and food. Equity is a strong motivator, but it's not even half as strong as the need for food or the fear of losing the roof over your head. If you want a talented developer to hop on board you have to make sure you can cover his/her basics.
  • kaens 18y ago
    This is exactly the reason that I turned down equity-only offers while I was freelancing after being on the down-and-out for a while. I was not in a financial situation where I could work for equity, I had bills to pay, and barely enough money to do so. I eventually found a very good client with a very good idea, and am now working for a "pay the bills and save a little as well" salary + (a fair amount of) equity, which should work out really well - but before that, every offer for equity that I got was from someone that either couldn't afford to pay my bills while waiting for their idea to come to fruition, or just had a "ooh like a myspace/twitter mashup!!" flop of an idea. If your idea is good, there are a lot of competent programmers who will work on it if you can keep a roof over their head and food in their stomach. Hell, I would live on someones couch or spare room (hence just food costs) while working on their idea if it was a really good one and I got along with them (I imagine I'm in the minority here).
• motoko 18y ago
  Jay, What people are trying to communicate is that they don't judge that you are offering value. It's a possible and valid answer to your question that you have to consider: that you ad is good, but your opportunity is bad. That doesn't help you launch your business, so how about this: What you seem to need to do is pay a contractor to build you a web application you have designed. Think of this as building out an empty strip mall unit into a cafe for fulfill your dream of owning a coffee house. You have a general idea, and with your good credit, you can lease the space, but you need somebody with skills and experience to do the build out: build a bar, install coffee machines, plumbing, electric, internet, interior design, funishing... etc. Assume you have plenty of cash and some rudimentary experience outfitting commercial real estate. Then this is straightforward: you request bids, hire a contractor, they do everything you want, you pay them, and cafe business is entirely owned by you. When the contractors are done, they are gone, though you are always welcome to repeat the process of you paying them for new work to maintain or expand your business. You will probably learn something about negotiating contracts based on over-optimistic sales projections, but oh well, that's life. So, this will be your general experience if you hire a web application contracting firm. But what if you don't have the money to hire somebody to do the work, and you can't do the work yourself? Now you are in troubled territory for which there is no MBA formula... This seems to be you. Here are some example scenarios, still following the cafe analogy, that could work and have respectable expectations of success: * You work with your family or very best friend who can help you do the work because they love you. They get some equity, but it's "your" business, and they respect that. Maybe the cafe goes on to be part of the family business. * You save your money until you can pay somebody to do the work. * You get a small business loan from the bank to do the work. (PS: off-topic, but please do not allow your friends and family to co-sign your small business loan if you really care about them...) Now you can't do any of the above... and now we're getting into shady territory of almost certain failure: * Reminded of stories of people who seemingly helped each other for free (see above), you convince "some guy / some kid" who "worked in construction / seems really handy" that the two of you will finally Achieve the American Dream and that together you have a shot at making TONS of money by him doing your work. You can't pay him, but you give him some "equity," and "that's ok, you'll be rich when this gets huge if we all work really hard."
  • 18y ago
• jaxn 18y ago
  I find it ironic that you are building a business to help people know they are getting paid what they are worth and most of the people commenting here are questioning your understanding of what the "lead developer" is worth. That does give me a little pause as to your domain knowledge.