10 ms·

CodeHS Wants To Teach Every American High Schooler How To Code

80 points by zachgalant 14y ago

rjzzleep 14y ago
and highschools teach everyone how to math, in the end it's still up to the individual
- zachgalant 14y ago
  That's true, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't teach math in hs. Same with programming. We need to give kids the opportunity to learn.
  - axiak 14y ago
    Great idea! Have you guys thought of creating a foundation to make it easy for people to donate to? To e.g. sponsor a school or something?
- econner 14y ago
  True, but I think the idea is more about trying to make computer science thought of more as a fundamental skill as math is. It's only going to be more important to know how to program as computers rule almost every subject. Pretty soon they'll stop putting "computational" in the front and it will just be an assumption.
  - codinghorror 14y ago
    No, it won't be. Computers used to boot to a flashing command prompt where you could program your ever-lovin' heart out. The fact that they don't today is progress. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/please-dont-learn-to-code.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/please-dont-learn-t...
    - zachgalant 14y ago
      Your article is really missing the point. You mention that problem solving is what's actually important, and coding is actually a fantastic way of teaching this because it allows you to really look at tough problems and break them down. Also, the main idea is that everyone should get exposed to computational thinking in school. Then, they will have a basis to make informed decisions for their future fields of study and work. Teaching CS in high school doesn't mean everyone needs to be a software engineer. It helps teach creative thinking, problem decomposition, and helps prepare students to approach the problems of the future.
    - starkness 14y ago
      Let's replace "code" with "write." Please don't learn how to write. Only writers do this, and we really don't need more of them anyway. There was a time when this wouldn't have sounded crazy. Learning to code teaches problem solving, new ways of breaking down complex scenarios, and a means to actually build something. It's true that not everyone needs to be a software engineer, but not everyone needs to be a mathematician either, and we don't use that as a basis to tell people not to learn math. Much like math, coding can be abstracted to a form of thinking in a way that plumbing cannot. I have a friend right now that is using CodeHS to teach 10 year olds, and they're absorbing it like sponges. And I have met so many people that, in retrospect, have wished they had learned to code at a younger age. Maybe if people had told them to learn how to code, they would have.
  - rjzzleep 14y ago
    tbh even my mother wanted to learn coding, her exact wording was "i have to learn programming too" i think its a great idea, but i told her the same i tell everyone: "you need to have a good reason, or a problem you want to solve, otherwise you're wasting your time" and now that i think about it, it's not really different from any other study out there. you ask the people why they learn it and they tell you because someone told them they'll get a job. and what you have is hundreds of thousands of masters and ph.d good for nothings, which are nothing more than factory workhorses. some professor or company gives them a task and they do exactly that.
- kiba 14y ago
  Everyone knows how to read and how to do algebra problems because life requires it.
  - alexholehouse 14y ago
    You have an exceptionally optimistic view of "everyone's" abilities.
zimmyer 14y ago
What a great idea!
justhw 14y ago
Wish you success. Have them get a project, personal side projects can teach a lot.
- zimmyer 14y ago
  Any ideas for suggested projects/games?
yesimahuman 14y ago
I truly wish them the best of luck, better CS education in HS is sorely needed. When I graduated HS in 2006, my school was just starting to phase out our programming classes that were still taught in Pascal by a soon retiring teacher. I remember those classes fondly, but I also remember how difficult it was to get other students to care.
rhizome 14y ago
These stories appear about every month or so, right? I think it's apparent that a certain segment of society would love programmers to be the new factory-workers.
- zimmyer 14y ago
  At least it would keep jobs in America and allow people to earn an honest living.
- sami36 14y ago
  It's never going to happen because it's lost on them just how hard programming is. I can say with a straight face, & not a hint of cynicism that programming is second only to medecine, as a wide-practiced* occupation, in terms of the cognitive effort it asks of its practitioners.
  - randomdata 14y ago
    I won't say that programming isn't hard, but I also farm and find the farming to be the more cognitively challenging career of the two. You need the same problem solving skills and you need to be able to apply them to an even wider range of applications.
  - LnxPrgr3 14y ago
    I am all for making good programming instruction available to anyone who wants it. I hate to think lack of access to knowledge and mentors is holding potentially brilliant programmers back. But I'm also sure this isn't going to turn programming into unskilled labor. "… most people can’t learn to program: between 30% and 60% of every university computer science department’s intake fail the ﬁrst programming course." And that's just to pass a class, and these are people who chose to go to school and major in computer science. And that says little about future success writing real-world code, which some people can't seem to pull off even after getting a degree. As far as I can tell, programming is part aptitude and part learned skill, and not everyone has any real aptitude for it. This doesn't mean they're stupid: they may be absolutely brilliant at something else. That thing just happens not to be programming. But I see no harm in letting anyone who wants to learn to program try, and in giving them as much support as possible. At worst it's another failed experiment, but if the upside is inspiring a few more people to become great at this I'm all for it.
teach 14y ago
After reading just the title, I was worried. After reading the article, I'm much more optimistic. Figuring out how to scale up tutoring and "why doesn't this code work" might actually make a difference. I'm a high school computer science teacher. I've personally taught (face-to-face) the basics of programming to more than 2,000 students over the past fifteen years. Quite a few of those have been "low income". Letting kids struggle and being able to support them when they get stuck is key to deep learning. Kudos, and ping me if I can be of help.
- zachgalant 14y ago
  Thanks! We totally agree, and I'd love to talk. Shoot me an email at zach@codehs.com
- jkeesh 14y ago
  Hey teach! Thanks for your support. As a teacher, but also a programmer, I think you can agree that not everything can be automated. Even when people are just getting started, there are lots of ways to get stuck.
moocow01 14y ago
Anyone else getting a 404? ... seems ironic given the headline
- starkness 14y ago
  Down for me as well--looks like TC is having some issues. Clearly they could use some coding help too.
  - halayli 14y ago
    404 means that they most probably removed the post.
    - starkness 14y ago
      There was a bad link from the front page before, and now the story is down altogether. Looks like they're trying to fix the problem.
    - zachgalant 14y ago
      Yeah, the post is down. If you're interested, you can check out http://codehs.com http://codehs.com or http://csinhs.com http://csinhs.com to read about us.
codefanzz 14y ago
Best of luck! The education system is incredibly antiquated; it's time to give future generations the tools to not only compete, but to thrive in the 21st century.
kayoone 14y ago
With stuff like this, we degrade the quality of our profession over time. Dont get me wrong, i like the idea and its good to have more people who understand programming. On the other hand it will also yield alot of low quality programmers, because the higher quality learn to code out of their own interest anyway. So in the end i am not convinced that its a good thing to have even more Rails programmers working for 15$ an hour. Yes programming is a valuable skill, but i dont agree it needs to be more of a universal skill to people like carpentry or plumbering for example. The people that need it for their job will have to learn it, the people that are passionate about it will learn it, all others will probably never learn it because it requires a ton of work and they end up on the low end, and we really have enough of bad programmers.
- b1naryth1ef 14y ago
  Its a large gap between teaching someone to write code, and program. A lot of current implementations of CS and Programming classes are just teaching a student the basic blocks, and how to use them in an environment like Java. The problem is, without the more complex blocks and the ability to understand how they fit together as a whole (not just in one language), students really just end up with a set of skills in purgatory.
  - zachgalant 14y ago
    We're focusing much more on giving people a fundamental understanding of what programming is and how to problem solve with code. The idea isn't just to teach syntax or a specific language, but rather to teach students how to think and give them an intro to what programming is and let them decide if it's worth pursuing as a career or major in college.
- randomdata 14y ago
  I'm not sure that is a real concern. Programming has been part of the school curriculum here for a long time. My father, who is now in his mid-50s, even learned programming in high school. I don't see many people coming from that system working as programmers. Learning about something doesn't mean there will be interest in actually pursuing a career in it.
moocow01 14y ago
I suppose its an enviable effort but I wonder if its out of touch with the true state of education. Insisting kids learn to code in the current educational climate should not be a priority in most American schools. You see most of us have blinders on whether we know it or not 1) we magnify the importance of programming and technology because we ourselves make a living from it 2) many of us are in a socio-economic bracket where we are not exposed to the average highschool environment (I'm not saying we are hoity-toity but if you live in SV or make more than 60k/yr you probably dont have a true grasp on it - consider yourself lucky) Kids first need to learn logic, math and english at a certain baseline... every good programmer is probably quite good at all 3 of those foundational things - those skills are the enablers for unlocking programming in a basic capacity. The problem is that the average highschooler is struggling immensely to get to that basic baseline at the time of graduation. Additionally with the very real budget and over-capacity problems, when new core curriculum is proposed the first predicament is what is going to have to get axed in its place. Somebody is going to have to pick something to say goodbye to that is actually truly core learning. Yes Im sure we all have our favorites of what we think is non-essential core curriclulum but in reality our opinions don't count and to be a realist they probably shouldn't - only the opinions of the district, administrators, teachers and parents count in any real way. Additionally, when you put programming up against any part of the core curriculum (geometry, algebra, literature, etc etc) - most will axe programming - I probably would as well.
- zachgalant 14y ago
  You're right that it's a difficult problem to solve, but it's worth trying to solve. Programming is a great way to help teach logic. Also, if taught well, it can be really fun for students and help reengage them with school. We've been teaching a number of low-income students already, and they have learned a lot and really enjoyed it. We always ask after a couple classes how they enjoy learning to code compared to their other classes, and most students just laugh because they think it's not even a comparison.
  - moocow01 14y ago
    I think probably your best trajectory is to try to find ways teachers can easily integrate programming as apart of their current curriculum and subjects. Ex. "build a small program that finds all 3 angles of the triangle" for geometry class. It would essentially have to be simple for a non-technical teacher to integrate with low equipment costs. I dont have all the details on the program in that the TC post is down but I think if you pitch it as "a curriculum to learn programming" you are going to to run into some very tough and potentially unmovable adversaries (ex. state governments).
zachgalant 14y ago
New link that isn't broken: http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/26/codehs-is-on-a-mission-to-bring-computer-science-education-to-every-high-school-in-the-u-s/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/26/codehs-is-on-a-mission-to-b...
ph0rcyas 14y ago
It is about 'meaning'. I'll elborate: there are so many things you can learn, so many areas of art, of science, of mathematics, of history and what not - but _why_ should we learn them? Because they are useful? They make us a better person? This is the elephant in the room. Education and learning is more of an attitude instead of constantly stuffing yourself with 'potentially useful information'. Programming is arguably one of the best ways to derive pleasure and seeing meaning in the learning process. You create, you design, you implement, you learn from others and in the end - most importantly - you have something working (and to show off), together with the thrill of knowing that this existed _because_, and solely because, you made it happen. It gives one a purpose. So in order to bring things that're only in your imagination into reality, you learn to code better, and learn about what you're trying to code (say, history, or science, or Tarot decks if you're into that). Instilling this sense of purpose to our young is a very lofty goal. In our current context, programming seems to achieve this goal in a far more time-efficient and rewarding way.
- jkeesh 14y ago
  Thanks for your comment. > So in order to bring things that're only in your imagination into reality, you learn to code better, and learn about what you're trying to code (say, history, or science, or Tarot decks if you're into that). I think this is one of the most powerful aspects of learning to code for students. They can create something that is important to them. They can build something that complements their learning in other areas. ... and if this comes to schools... they can directly apply things they learn in school.
ludovicurbain 14y ago
How about instead, teaching every american high schooler the basic skills, like they do in other civilized countries. How about instead, teaching them the math they need to understand IT properly ? It's time to stop creating bad coders and time to focus on teaching great human beings (that may end up excellent coders). Some were concerned about price, I'm not. Everytime I hear about noob/bad coders offering cheaper rates, I just feel like I should raise mine to help balance the ROI in their favor, to at least give them a chance to be employed.
netcan 14y ago
While students will likely get the most out of CodeHS if it’s being offered in a computer science class taught by someone familiar with CS, the platform allows teachers to learn right along with their students. That there is putting a finger on a huge cultural hurdle. Not just for the adoption of this problem bu maybe to adaption to the modern world. The rule of thumb is that teachers need to be 5+ years more advanced than their students. A teacher that finds the material hard is a very different role.
k-mcgrady 14y ago
I've never liked the movement to get all kids to learn how to code. It's not an essential skill like Maths or English (or the language of your country). If we are doing our jobs right the only people who should ever need to write code are the ones who want to. Schools should offer computer classes for students who want to learn, obviously, but insisting everyone learn more than the basics (which kids growing up these days tend to know anyway) is a waste of time.
- Nursie 14y ago
  Indeed. Why should the peasants learn to read when there are priests to do it for them?
  - ams6110 14y ago
    It's more a question of trying to fit everyone into the same mold. Literally teaching every student to code makes about as much sense as teaching every student to weld, or play piano, or learn Latin, or <insert other specialty skill here>. Not that knowing any of those things is bad (most are probably beneficial) but it's ignoring the individuality of the students. Not every kid is interested in programming. Schools would do better if they could do a little more to nurture the abilities and interests of their students rather than try to fit them into a one-for-all standard curriculum.
    - Nursie 14y ago
      At my school we were taught an instrument (for a while, to see if it took), introduced to shopwork including welding, and taught Latin for several years. That last one is less useful but I wouldn't compare it in any way to basic computer programming, which allows some insight into the running of the modern world. Just saw an amazing comment about this over at the register - 'Democracy requires every person to understand the world to some degree. Computers are an important part of our world. So people need to have at least a general idea about how they work. They need to know what they do where their inherent limitations are.'
- zachgalant 14y ago
klrr 14y ago
Crap, I don't want programming to be a mainstream job when I grow up
Uchikoma 14y ago
This may be partially "futile". Though my experience (from teaching and 15y of recruiting) is inconclusive I still lean strongly towards the "double hump" theory is true. "All teachers of programming find that their results display a 'double hump'. It is as if there are two populations: those who can, and those who cannot, each with its own independent bell curve." http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/ http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/ http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programm...
pflats 14y ago
"You are using Internet Explorer, an unsupported browser :( You should download Google Chrome so you can get started!" Just a warning from a high-school teacher: this is a non-starter in a lot of schools. High-school IT departments have a lot on their hands keeping kids on approved sites, and (for historical reasons, as I understand it) IE is one of the easier browsers to deploy in such a way. I know you probably don't want to develop for IE, but if you want to hit the market at large, you'll have to. I can probably get my IT department to put Chrome on for an approved list of students, but not every school will be willing to do that.
cafard 14y ago
I want to teach every American sexagenarian how to reverse dunk, taking off from the free throw line. My "Show HN: Hacking Levitation" will be along shortly. Teach kids math, teach kids to write, and let those who care to find their way to coding. The schools are doing badly enough on math, reading, and writing that this is the area that requires concentration.
haubey 14y ago
As a high schooler, I think its' good that companies are trying to reform computer science in high school. Comp Sci AP scares away too many kids, I think, because Java at first is an intimidating language and you don't get much out of the programs you create. Just seeing lines come out of the console isn't as gratifying as building a simple paint app in canvas. The key is teaching students how to build practical applications right off the bat. If my school had offered iPhone app making, I'm sure a ton of kids would have taken the class (granted Objective-C probably would have scared many of them away within the first few days). Making something with a UI makes computer programming seem more practical and interesting than sorting and searching an array in Java and spitting out its position in the console. On an unrelated note, Karel the dog and his (her?) world reminds me a lot of Greenfoot and GridWorld.
sakopov 14y ago
Here is my $0.02. While this may be a great idea, coupled with the current state of software industry this is absolutely terrible! Let me elaborate. What does it take to get a job as a programmer? Next to nothing. After graduating with my computer science degree I've spent a few years working with the most incompetent people who were cooks, business graduates, poured concrete 2 months prior (you name it) and then decided to become programmers because they coded a formula in a spreadsheet. I've spent some of the most agonizing hours unclusterfucking big bowls of pasta code with meatballs and all kinds of other shit all sprinkled with cheddar cheese. Then I had to hold their hands so that they wouldn't make such a stupid mistake again, and again and again. Then i left and you know what? These people still work there. This is exactly what this kind of thing encourages. It encourages coders, not software engineers/developers and it ends up hurting the industry more than helping it. Yes, you'll have some high school kids who'll like coding. They'll graduate from school and will be sucked into their first programming job right out of HIGH SCHOOL writing shitty code, making way more than their friends and making someone's life miserable. Then a small fraction of those kids will get better (some much better) and maybe get formal education, while the majority will remain damn coders. The industry allows this and it only gets worse. Look, we're not professionals by any formal definition of an engineering profession, but at least we can try to get there some freaking day. But it's incredibly hard to do when you have so much "noise" entering the work-force. Don't get me wrong, i think programming IS essential and I DO believe it should be taught, but i just don't see how this benefits anyone at this point in time.
- zachgalant 14y ago
  It benefits all the kids who are given an opportunity to learn what they deserve to be taught. If taught well, kids will understand that coding is an art and requires a lot of practice and thought. We are not claiming you can get a job right out of high school, but merely that they should get exposed in high school and have a basis for continued study. If every kid learning to code increases the number who choose to continue to study it in college, there will be more qualified coders. Companies will be able to selectively hire good ones, and people will understand that they need to actually practice and get good at it to get a good job.
- jkeesh 14y ago

80 points by zachgalant 14y ago

rjzzleep 14y ago

and highschools teach everyone how to math, in the end it's still up to the individual

zachgalant 14y ago
That's true, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't teach math in hs. Same with programming. We need to give kids the opportunity to learn.
- axiak 14y ago
  Great idea! Have you guys thought of creating a foundation to make it easy for people to donate to? To e.g. sponsor a school or something?
econner 14y ago
True, but I think the idea is more about trying to make computer science thought of more as a fundamental skill as math is. It's only going to be more important to know how to program as computers rule almost every subject. Pretty soon they'll stop putting "computational" in the front and it will just be an assumption.
- codinghorror 14y ago
  No, it won't be. Computers used to boot to a flashing command prompt where you could program your ever-lovin' heart out. The fact that they don't today is progress. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/please-dont-learn-to-code.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/please-dont-learn-t...
  - zachgalant 14y ago
    Your article is really missing the point. You mention that problem solving is what's actually important, and coding is actually a fantastic way of teaching this because it allows you to really look at tough problems and break them down. Also, the main idea is that everyone should get exposed to computational thinking in school. Then, they will have a basis to make informed decisions for their future fields of study and work. Teaching CS in high school doesn't mean everyone needs to be a software engineer. It helps teach creative thinking, problem decomposition, and helps prepare students to approach the problems of the future.
  - starkness 14y ago
    Let's replace "code" with "write." Please don't learn how to write. Only writers do this, and we really don't need more of them anyway. There was a time when this wouldn't have sounded crazy. Learning to code teaches problem solving, new ways of breaking down complex scenarios, and a means to actually build something. It's true that not everyone needs to be a software engineer, but not everyone needs to be a mathematician either, and we don't use that as a basis to tell people not to learn math. Much like math, coding can be abstracted to a form of thinking in a way that plumbing cannot. I have a friend right now that is using CodeHS to teach 10 year olds, and they're absorbing it like sponges. And I have met so many people that, in retrospect, have wished they had learned to code at a younger age. Maybe if people had told them to learn how to code, they would have.
- rjzzleep 14y ago
  tbh even my mother wanted to learn coding, her exact wording was "i have to learn programming too" i think its a great idea, but i told her the same i tell everyone: "you need to have a good reason, or a problem you want to solve, otherwise you're wasting your time" and now that i think about it, it's not really different from any other study out there. you ask the people why they learn it and they tell you because someone told them they'll get a job. and what you have is hundreds of thousands of masters and ph.d good for nothings, which are nothing more than factory workhorses. some professor or company gives them a task and they do exactly that.
kiba 14y ago
Everyone knows how to read and how to do algebra problems because life requires it.
- alexholehouse 14y ago
  You have an exceptionally optimistic view of "everyone's" abilities.

zimmyer 14y ago

What a great idea!

justhw 14y ago

Wish you success. Have them get a project, personal side projects can teach a lot.

zimmyer 14y ago
Any ideas for suggested projects/games?

yesimahuman 14y ago

I truly wish them the best of luck, better CS education in HS is sorely needed. When I graduated HS in 2006, my school was just starting to phase out our programming classes that were still taught in Pascal by a soon retiring teacher. I remember those classes fondly, but I also remember how difficult it was to get other students to care.

rhizome 14y ago

These stories appear about every month or so, right? I think it's apparent that a certain segment of society would love programmers to be the new factory-workers.

zimmyer 14y ago
At least it would keep jobs in America and allow people to earn an honest living.
sami36 14y ago
It's never going to happen because it's lost on them just how hard programming is. I can say with a straight face, & not a hint of cynicism that programming is second only to medecine, as a wide-practiced* occupation, in terms of the cognitive effort it asks of its practitioners.
- randomdata 14y ago
  I won't say that programming isn't hard, but I also farm and find the farming to be the more cognitively challenging career of the two. You need the same problem solving skills and you need to be able to apply them to an even wider range of applications.
- LnxPrgr3 14y ago
  I am all for making good programming instruction available to anyone who wants it. I hate to think lack of access to knowledge and mentors is holding potentially brilliant programmers back. But I'm also sure this isn't going to turn programming into unskilled labor. "… most people can’t learn to program: between 30% and 60% of every university computer science department’s intake fail the ﬁrst programming course." And that's just to pass a class, and these are people who chose to go to school and major in computer science. And that says little about future success writing real-world code, which some people can't seem to pull off even after getting a degree. As far as I can tell, programming is part aptitude and part learned skill, and not everyone has any real aptitude for it. This doesn't mean they're stupid: they may be absolutely brilliant at something else. That thing just happens not to be programming. But I see no harm in letting anyone who wants to learn to program try, and in giving them as much support as possible. At worst it's another failed experiment, but if the upside is inspiring a few more people to become great at this I'm all for it.

teach 14y ago

After reading just the title, I was worried. After reading the article, I'm much more optimistic. Figuring out how to scale up tutoring and "why doesn't this code work" might actually make a difference. I'm a high school computer science teacher. I've personally taught (face-to-face) the basics of programming to more than 2,000 students over the past fifteen years. Quite a few of those have been "low income". Letting kids struggle and being able to support them when they get stuck is key to deep learning. Kudos, and ping me if I can be of help.

zachgalant 14y ago
Thanks! We totally agree, and I'd love to talk. Shoot me an email at zach@codehs.com
jkeesh 14y ago
Hey teach! Thanks for your support. As a teacher, but also a programmer, I think you can agree that not everything can be automated. Even when people are just getting started, there are lots of ways to get stuck.

moocow01 14y ago

Anyone else getting a 404? ... seems ironic given the headline

starkness 14y ago
Down for me as well--looks like TC is having some issues. Clearly they could use some coding help too.
- halayli 14y ago
  404 means that they most probably removed the post.
  - starkness 14y ago
    There was a bad link from the front page before, and now the story is down altogether. Looks like they're trying to fix the problem.
  - zachgalant 14y ago
    Yeah, the post is down. If you're interested, you can check out http://codehs.com http://codehs.com or http://csinhs.com http://csinhs.com to read about us.

codefanzz 14y ago

Best of luck! The education system is incredibly antiquated; it's time to give future generations the tools to not only compete, but to thrive in the 21st century.

kayoone 14y ago

With stuff like this, we degrade the quality of our profession over time. Dont get me wrong, i like the idea and its good to have more people who understand programming. On the other hand it will also yield alot of low quality programmers, because the higher quality learn to code out of their own interest anyway. So in the end i am not convinced that its a good thing to have even more Rails programmers working for 15$ an hour. Yes programming is a valuable skill, but i dont agree it needs to be more of a universal skill to people like carpentry or plumbering for example. The people that need it for their job will have to learn it, the people that are passionate about it will learn it, all others will probably never learn it because it requires a ton of work and they end up on the low end, and we really have enough of bad programmers.

b1naryth1ef 14y ago
Its a large gap between teaching someone to write code, and program. A lot of current implementations of CS and Programming classes are just teaching a student the basic blocks, and how to use them in an environment like Java. The problem is, without the more complex blocks and the ability to understand how they fit together as a whole (not just in one language), students really just end up with a set of skills in purgatory.
- zachgalant 14y ago
  We're focusing much more on giving people a fundamental understanding of what programming is and how to problem solve with code. The idea isn't just to teach syntax or a specific language, but rather to teach students how to think and give them an intro to what programming is and let them decide if it's worth pursuing as a career or major in college.
randomdata 14y ago
I'm not sure that is a real concern. Programming has been part of the school curriculum here for a long time. My father, who is now in his mid-50s, even learned programming in high school. I don't see many people coming from that system working as programmers. Learning about something doesn't mean there will be interest in actually pursuing a career in it.

moocow01 14y ago

I suppose its an enviable effort but I wonder if its out of touch with the true state of education. Insisting kids learn to code in the current educational climate should not be a priority in most American schools. You see most of us have blinders on whether we know it or not 1) we magnify the importance of programming and technology because we ourselves make a living from it 2) many of us are in a socio-economic bracket where we are not exposed to the average highschool environment (I'm not saying we are hoity-toity but if you live in SV or make more than 60k/yr you probably dont have a true grasp on it - consider yourself lucky) Kids first need to learn logic, math and english at a certain baseline... every good programmer is probably quite good at all 3 of those foundational things - those skills are the enablers for unlocking programming in a basic capacity. The problem is that the average highschooler is struggling immensely to get to that basic baseline at the time of graduation. Additionally with the very real budget and over-capacity problems, when new core curriculum is proposed the first predicament is what is going to have to get axed in its place. Somebody is going to have to pick something to say goodbye to that is actually truly core learning. Yes Im sure we all have our favorites of what we think is non-essential core curriclulum but in reality our opinions don't count and to be a realist they probably shouldn't - only the opinions of the district, administrators, teachers and parents count in any real way. Additionally, when you put programming up against any part of the core curriculum (geometry, algebra, literature, etc etc) - most will axe programming - I probably would as well.

zachgalant 14y ago
You're right that it's a difficult problem to solve, but it's worth trying to solve. Programming is a great way to help teach logic. Also, if taught well, it can be really fun for students and help reengage them with school. We've been teaching a number of low-income students already, and they have learned a lot and really enjoyed it. We always ask after a couple classes how they enjoy learning to code compared to their other classes, and most students just laugh because they think it's not even a comparison.
- moocow01 14y ago
  I think probably your best trajectory is to try to find ways teachers can easily integrate programming as apart of their current curriculum and subjects. Ex. "build a small program that finds all 3 angles of the triangle" for geometry class. It would essentially have to be simple for a non-technical teacher to integrate with low equipment costs. I dont have all the details on the program in that the TC post is down but I think if you pitch it as "a curriculum to learn programming" you are going to to run into some very tough and potentially unmovable adversaries (ex. state governments).

zachgalant 14y ago

New link that isn't broken: http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/26/codehs-is-on-a-mission-to-bring-computer-science-education-to-every-high-school-in-the-u-s/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/26/codehs-is-on-a-mission-to-b...

ph0rcyas 14y ago

It is about 'meaning'. I'll elborate: there are so many things you can learn, so many areas of art, of science, of mathematics, of history and what not - but _why_ should we learn them? Because they are useful? They make us a better person? This is the elephant in the room. Education and learning is more of an attitude instead of constantly stuffing yourself with 'potentially useful information'. Programming is arguably one of the best ways to derive pleasure and seeing meaning in the learning process. You create, you design, you implement, you learn from others and in the end - most importantly - you have something working (and to show off), together with the thrill of knowing that this existed _because_, and solely because, you made it happen. It gives one a purpose. So in order to bring things that're only in your imagination into reality, you learn to code better, and learn about what you're trying to code (say, history, or science, or Tarot decks if you're into that). Instilling this sense of purpose to our young is a very lofty goal. In our current context, programming seems to achieve this goal in a far more time-efficient and rewarding way.

jkeesh 14y ago
Thanks for your comment. > So in order to bring things that're only in your imagination into reality, you learn to code better, and learn about what you're trying to code (say, history, or science, or Tarot decks if you're into that). I think this is one of the most powerful aspects of learning to code for students. They can create something that is important to them. They can build something that complements their learning in other areas. ... and if this comes to schools... they can directly apply things they learn in school.

ludovicurbain 14y ago

How about instead, teaching every american high schooler the basic skills, like they do in other civilized countries. How about instead, teaching them the math they need to understand IT properly ? It's time to stop creating bad coders and time to focus on teaching great human beings (that may end up excellent coders). Some were concerned about price, I'm not. Everytime I hear about noob/bad coders offering cheaper rates, I just feel like I should raise mine to help balance the ROI in their favor, to at least give them a chance to be employed.

netcan 14y ago

While students will likely get the most out of CodeHS if it’s being offered in a computer science class taught by someone familiar with CS, the platform allows teachers to learn right along with their students. That there is putting a finger on a huge cultural hurdle. Not just for the adoption of this problem bu maybe to adaption to the modern world. The rule of thumb is that teachers need to be 5+ years more advanced than their students. A teacher that finds the material hard is a very different role.

k-mcgrady 14y ago

I've never liked the movement to get all kids to learn how to code. It's not an essential skill like Maths or English (or the language of your country). If we are doing our jobs right the only people who should ever need to write code are the ones who want to. Schools should offer computer classes for students who want to learn, obviously, but insisting everyone learn more than the basics (which kids growing up these days tend to know anyway) is a waste of time.

Nursie 14y ago
Indeed. Why should the peasants learn to read when there are priests to do it for them?
- ams6110 14y ago
  It's more a question of trying to fit everyone into the same mold. Literally teaching every student to code makes about as much sense as teaching every student to weld, or play piano, or learn Latin, or <insert other specialty skill here>. Not that knowing any of those things is bad (most are probably beneficial) but it's ignoring the individuality of the students. Not every kid is interested in programming. Schools would do better if they could do a little more to nurture the abilities and interests of their students rather than try to fit them into a one-for-all standard curriculum.
  - Nursie 14y ago
    At my school we were taught an instrument (for a while, to see if it took), introduced to shopwork including welding, and taught Latin for several years. That last one is less useful but I wouldn't compare it in any way to basic computer programming, which allows some insight into the running of the modern world. Just saw an amazing comment about this over at the register - 'Democracy requires every person to understand the world to some degree. Computers are an important part of our world. So people need to have at least a general idea about how they work. They need to know what they do where their inherent limitations are.'
zachgalant 14y ago

klrr 14y ago

Crap, I don't want programming to be a mainstream job when I grow up

Uchikoma 14y ago

This may be partially "futile". Though my experience (from teaching and 15y of recruiting) is inconclusive I still lean strongly towards the "double hump" theory is true. "All teachers of programming find that their results display a 'double hump'. It is as if there are two populations: those who can, and those who cannot, each with its own independent bell curve." http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/ http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/ http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/07/separating-programm...

pflats 14y ago

"You are using Internet Explorer, an unsupported browser :( You should download Google Chrome so you can get started!" Just a warning from a high-school teacher: this is a non-starter in a lot of schools. High-school IT departments have a lot on their hands keeping kids on approved sites, and (for historical reasons, as I understand it) IE is one of the easier browsers to deploy in such a way. I know you probably don't want to develop for IE, but if you want to hit the market at large, you'll have to. I can probably get my IT department to put Chrome on for an approved list of students, but not every school will be willing to do that.

cafard 14y ago

I want to teach every American sexagenarian how to reverse dunk, taking off from the free throw line. My "Show HN: Hacking Levitation" will be along shortly. Teach kids math, teach kids to write, and let those who care to find their way to coding. The schools are doing badly enough on math, reading, and writing that this is the area that requires concentration.

haubey 14y ago

As a high schooler, I think its' good that companies are trying to reform computer science in high school. Comp Sci AP scares away too many kids, I think, because Java at first is an intimidating language and you don't get much out of the programs you create. Just seeing lines come out of the console isn't as gratifying as building a simple paint app in canvas. The key is teaching students how to build practical applications right off the bat. If my school had offered iPhone app making, I'm sure a ton of kids would have taken the class (granted Objective-C probably would have scared many of them away within the first few days). Making something with a UI makes computer programming seem more practical and interesting than sorting and searching an array in Java and spitting out its position in the console. On an unrelated note, Karel the dog and his (her?) world reminds me a lot of Greenfoot and GridWorld.

sakopov 14y ago

Here is my $0.02. While this may be a great idea, coupled with the current state of software industry this is absolutely terrible! Let me elaborate. What does it take to get a job as a programmer? Next to nothing. After graduating with my computer science degree I've spent a few years working with the most incompetent people who were cooks, business graduates, poured concrete 2 months prior (you name it) and then decided to become programmers because they coded a formula in a spreadsheet. I've spent some of the most agonizing hours unclusterfucking big bowls of pasta code with meatballs and all kinds of other shit all sprinkled with cheddar cheese. Then I had to hold their hands so that they wouldn't make such a stupid mistake again, and again and again. Then i left and you know what? These people still work there. This is exactly what this kind of thing encourages. It encourages coders, not software engineers/developers and it ends up hurting the industry more than helping it. Yes, you'll have some high school kids who'll like coding. They'll graduate from school and will be sucked into their first programming job right out of HIGH SCHOOL writing shitty code, making way more than their friends and making someone's life miserable. Then a small fraction of those kids will get better (some much better) and maybe get formal education, while the majority will remain damn coders. The industry allows this and it only gets worse. Look, we're not professionals by any formal definition of an engineering profession, but at least we can try to get there some freaking day. But it's incredibly hard to do when you have so much "noise" entering the work-force. Don't get me wrong, i think programming IS essential and I DO believe it should be taught, but i just don't see how this benefits anyone at this point in time.

zachgalant 14y ago
It benefits all the kids who are given an opportunity to learn what they deserve to be taught. If taught well, kids will understand that coding is an art and requires a lot of practice and thought. We are not claiming you can get a job right out of high school, but merely that they should get exposed in high school and have a basis for continued study. If every kid learning to code increases the number who choose to continue to study it in college, there will be more qualified coders. Companies will be able to selectively hire good ones, and people will understand that they need to actually practice and get good at it to get a good job.
jkeesh 14y ago