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The concept of a polyglot[0] has been around for ages: the Wikipedia page mentions an 8-language one going around on Usenet in the 1990s. If it works for source

by crote 5mo ago

The concept of a polyglot[0] has been around for ages: the Wikipedia page mentions an 8-language one going around on Usenet in the 1990s. If it works for source code, and for scripting languages, and for things like PDF+ZIP, why wouldn't there be a pretty good chance the various executable formats are flexible enough to allow for it too? A libc which is flexible enough to select specific code paths depending on runtime conditions? Every libc already does this to make use of the latest hardware features[1], using the same approach for platform-specific code isn't a huge stretch - you're basically doing a lightweight WINE. Her work is definitely impressive, but it isn't magic. You'll see similar stuff if you look into the demoscene, or the IOCCC, or a decent chunk of the talks at CCC. And it's not like APE and Cosmo libc are seeing massive adoption: the people who want portability but can't even compile for multiple platforms are probably happier with something like Java due to the better ecosystem support. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyglot_(computing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyglot_(computing) [1]: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Glibc-More-AVX-512-October-2022 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Glibc-More-AVX-512-October-202...

TimTheTinker 5mo ago
Yes, polyglot binaries are a straightforward extension of the notion of polyglot source code to binary executable files. But APE/Cosmopolitan takes this to insane levels: - a fully cross-platform libc with cross-platform support built into the output binary, integrated into clang and gcc toolchains - not just cross-platform, but also cross-architecture: output binaries work unmodified on both AMD64 and ARM64 architectures - sheer number of executable format compatibilities: it's a polyglot across macOS, linux, windows, 3 BSDs, and a bootable BIOS target - polyglot not just for executable outputs, but also for PKZIP. You can open and modify an executable using common zip file editors. And post-hoc zipped-in data can be accessed/modified by code in the executable using interfaces in cosmopolitan libc - Zip polyglot can be used to create portable embeddable code-packaged interpreters where the code being interpreted is loaded/executed from zipped-in data. One example: RedBean is a very high-performance APE-packaged web server that serves data in its zip archive and hosts web service code from Lua scripts in its zip archive. Built-in library enables Lua code to store/retrieve data from zipped-in SQLite databases. The comparison to the demoscene and IOCCC is apt, but this is at another level because it's all production-ready. The Llamafile format is an APE binary compiled with Cosmopolitan libc with model weights zipped into it.
- saagarjha 5mo ago
  APE is too much of a hack to be called "production-ready". It works, but there really is not much guarantee it will continue to do so.
  - TimTheTinker 5mo ago
    There's an "ape loader" that speeds up loading the executable on various platforms -- that will guarantee it continues to work, as it can evolve with the platform to continue support for binary format.
    - saagarjha 4mo ago
      I don't think people will appreciate a loader that downloads a new, updated binary

by crote 5mo ago

TimTheTinker 5mo ago

Yes, polyglot binaries are a straightforward extension of the notion of polyglot source code to binary executable files. But APE/Cosmopolitan takes this to insane levels: - a fully cross-platform libc with cross-platform support built into the output binary, integrated into clang and gcc toolchains - not just cross-platform, but also cross-architecture: output binaries work unmodified on both AMD64 and ARM64 architectures - sheer number of executable format compatibilities: it's a polyglot across macOS, linux, windows, 3 BSDs, and a bootable BIOS target - polyglot not just for executable outputs, but also for PKZIP. You can open and modify an executable using common zip file editors. And post-hoc zipped-in data can be accessed/modified by code in the executable using interfaces in cosmopolitan libc - Zip polyglot can be used to create portable embeddable code-packaged interpreters where the code being interpreted is loaded/executed from zipped-in data. One example: RedBean is a very high-performance APE-packaged web server that serves data in its zip archive and hosts web service code from Lua scripts in its zip archive. Built-in library enables Lua code to store/retrieve data from zipped-in SQLite databases. The comparison to the demoscene and IOCCC is apt, but this is at another level because it's all production-ready. The Llamafile format is an APE binary compiled with Cosmopolitan libc with model weights zipped into it.

saagarjha 5mo ago
APE is too much of a hack to be called "production-ready". It works, but there really is not much guarantee it will continue to do so.
- TimTheTinker 5mo ago
  There's an "ape loader" that speeds up loading the executable on various platforms -- that will guarantee it continues to work, as it can evolve with the platform to continue support for binary format.
  - saagarjha 4mo ago
    I don't think people will appreciate a loader that downloads a new, updated binary