8 ms·

I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer. Looks like he was a demanding jerk as well. Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference be

I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer. Looks like he was a demanding jerk as well. Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference between what we think of historical figures and how they actually were. It's interesting how much we want our heroes to be pure and spotless -- unlike any other humans we encounter.

chimeracoder 14y ago
> Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference between what we think of historical figures and how they actually were. It shows that people are complicated and multifaceted. While we have a tendency to either laud or vilify figures (with nothing in between), in reality, historical figures can be both "good" and "bad" in different aspects of their lives... just like the rest of us. My favorite example of this is Helen Keller[1]. Almost nobody these days knows anything about Helen Keller beyond the age of 18 - they know that learned to communicate despite being deaf and blind, but the nearly 70 years of her life after that are almost buried in history. Which is a shame, because Helen Keller would have been a notable figure in her own right even if it weren't for her disability[2]. But because she was a member of the official Socialist party, we can't use her story as an inspirational lesson and mention that she held political beliefs that we may or may not agree with. Instead have to make a judgement call as to whether her "good" or her "bad[3]" side is more important to teach, and then forget about the rest. Worse, this principle is applied in reverse to dehumanize people whom history has classified as villains. The result is that our history is filled with monochromatic caricatures, and we forget that, were we to see the complete picture, our modern-day "villains" may not look so different (for better or for worse!) [1] I believe Loewen talks about this in his excellent book Lies My Teacher Told Me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me) [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller#Political_activities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller#Political_activiti... [2] Naturally, this presumes that you either disagree with socialist politics or think that history lessons should be politically neutral, which is the predominant belief in the USA.
- aufreak3 14y ago
  It is more complicated I think even in the case of Einstein. The period of strained relationship mentioned coincides with the period during which he was building up General Relativity (which he published in 1916). Given the intensity of work that would've been needed for that (all that gorgeous new math and physical insights!) with wrong turns to avoid in every move, it is well conceivable that his marriage was placed at risk. This list might even have been his way of expressing that his life priority is finding a unified theory of everything. Now when I write that, does our welcoming of his great contributions need to make us guilty of also endorsing morals we perceive behind this "list of demands" he made of his wife?
  - noonespecial 14y ago
    I like to think of it backwards; If I knew that I had a contribution to make to humanity as great as Einstein's, would I willingly sacrifice my relationship with my family to make it?
    - pfortuny 14y ago
      I hope I would not. The future is irrelevant because unknown in the face of a single present person.
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      That's an extremely difficult moral problem. It's akin to asking yourself if you would rather rescue the child on the left or the 3 people on the right when given the choice. And then with various permutations for the child being yours or a stranger and/or the people on the right being your parents and / or strangers. We are not well equipped to make such decisions.
      - aufreak3 14y ago
        It is a tough moral problem, but one that societies of old have recognized and formalized. For example, most all religions have some formal structure where a person with a "higher calling" can take up a monkhood of some sort. Formal induction into monkhood made their severance from family ties public and contractual, much as the formal wedding ceremony publicizes a man-woman relationship. We just don't have a socially accepted notion of "scientific monkhood" yet I suppose.
ekianjo 14y ago
Well this was also a different time. You can hardly expect the early 1900s relationships between men and women to be on the same ground as the early 2000s ones. The world has (culturally) changed a lot since then. Do not judge people from the past with today's eyes.
redthrowaway 14y ago
Keep in mind that this was in 1919, when the accepted roles of men and women in marriages were very different. It's important, when reading historical documents, not to judge those discussed within by modern standards.
- lostlogin 14y ago
  Einstein was quite capable of thinking outside the norm. It's lacking context, but this sure doesn't look good.
- pfortuny 14y ago
  Cultivared men were not jerks then as a general rule.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    The position of women in society in 1914 is in no way comparable to today. We have come a long long way since then, and we still have a long long way to go. Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule. It's just that we are too blind to see (just like Einstein was in his day) that. Give it until 2110 to tell you just how much. In 1914 it was totally normal for women not to have the vote, not to have a say in the family finances and to be given consideration only after the sons in the family (but before the daughters). They were not considered capable of higher education (exceptions allowed, sometimes these dressed as men to get around the limitations) and so on. Cultivated men made those rules and whole pile of others, and decades of erosion by activists and others have restored the balance. Partially. Einstein was - as far as I can see here - not much different than what I know about how life was back then in general. Plenty of his peers would have done much worse than this, and only an extremely small (vanishingly small maybe) portion of society would have done much better. The fact that we have Einstein on a pedestal today does not mean that (a) he wasn't human and hence bound to make mistakes and (b) that he wasn't a product of his time.
    - derleth 14y ago
      > Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule. It's just that we are too blind to see (just like Einstein was in his day) that. Give it until 2110 to tell you just how much. Same with women, and we'll have to wait just as long to see it.
zachinglis 14y ago
The man was highly intelligent. Often intelligence and social skills seesaw (obviously not always.) What he did was wrong by what we know now, but I don't think it came from malice.
stickfigure 14y ago
Why do you automatically assume he is a jerk? Do you know more about his personal life than what was mentioned here? How do we know she wasn't a horrible person and this is actually a gracious response? I really have no idea, but I think it's pretty unfair to make character judgements from a single note out of context. Human relationships are complex.
- andrewfelix 14y ago
  The OP is making a judgement based on the evidence he has, not on the evidence he doesn't. You on the other hand are attempting to counter his argument with no evidence at all. If you want to counter the argument, present contrary evidence.
  - chromic 14y ago
    He wanted to remain together just for the children. It's pretty safe to conclude he would not have done so if he had no children and that her presence is detrimental to him in some fashion. The terms listed are harsh, but they reflect his priorities quite well. Calling him a jerk is a bit out of line when he's prioritizing his children highly enough to try being a father when that isn't his most important goal.
    - andrewfelix 14y ago
      His most important goal doesn't appear to have been his children, but rather his work.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    What a horrible way to argue. So the thought "the evidence might not be sufficient" never comes to your mind? Uncritical thinking like this ("knee jerk reactions") are one of the banes of humanity.
    - andrewfelix 14y ago
      I wasn't suggesting the OP's argument was fact. I'm simply suggesting one counters the argument by backing their own up. I think the down votes are a little harsh.
randomdata 14y ago
I have to say, I didn't really come away with the "demanding jerk" impression at all. She wanted him to stay for the kids and continue to provide for the family. In return, he wanted some help around the house and to ensure emotional disconnect from the relationship that was already dead by this point. I expect couples today would form similar arrangements in the same situation.
- klepra 14y ago
  So he was doing her a favour? Isn't he a father as well who should think for the best of his children too? So in other case he would just leave her with the children? Demanding 3 meals every day served or else is kind of disrespectful to someone you used to love.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    3 meals a day might benefit the children, too. Not fighting in front of them is probably also a good idea. What does he propose that is bad for children?
    - klepra 14y ago
      Well, poster above me was implying that his demands were reasonable, as he is staying with her and children. If she wouldn't agree to him, he would leave and left her with children, that is not exactly unconditional love for his children and also sexist/macho.
      - Tichy 14y ago
        It's not a given that staying together is best for the children. If there is constant fighting, separation might be better for all of them.
        klepra 14y ago
        You are right from today's perspective. But you have to keep in mind that was early 19th century, maybe seperation than was harder for wife and children. EDIT: I meant early 20th centory...
hgnb 14y ago
As a sole breadwinner,married to a woman who belittles me in front of our children, who, despite having full-time domestic help, grudgingly provides me with meals, who swings between extreme emotional neediness and rejection for weeks at a time and who occasionally physically attacks me in rages (she was diagnosed with a psychological disorder, but treatment is blocked by her family), I wish I could produce a list like that. I don't know if Einstein's marriage was similar to mine. Maybe he was a demanding jerk, but the possibility does exist that he was reacting to the circumstances he found himself in.
- kevinconroy 14y ago
  From one husband to another, hang in there man and in all sincerity, best of luck.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  From someone who's been through part of that (though without the kids), if you can possibly find an out, do.
- georgeorwell 14y ago
  Assuming you truly have the desire to change things and that you actually want help, here is some unsolicited advice: go into individual therapy for yourself and if possible try to start couple's therapy too. Look for long-term once-a-week therapy and don't be afraid to shop around for therapists because it's important that you like the person. If that seems too daunting, order The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverly Engel or get it out of the library. It's a good starting point and in general books written by therapists are a great complement to therapy. http://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Abusive-Relationship-Abused-Abusing/dp/0471454036 http://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Abusive-Relationship-Abuse... If not for yourself, do this for your children, who suffer as much as you - if only because you and your wife are so important to them - but are helpless to change the situation.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    If mental illness is involved, you'll need more than just therapy. Treatment, patience, and...luck? Anyways, this isn't the place for relationship advice, and we are hardly qualified to give it.
wellpast 14y ago
I agree that this isn't enough to judge Einsteins morality, but it is interesting the tendency to want our heroes to be noble people. James Thurber wrote a wonderful short story about this -- The Greatest Man in the World.
csomar 14y ago
I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer. You'll need sufficient proof for that. Not just "heard". Looks like he was a demanding jerk as well. Really? Asking for 3 meals a day and laundry? Maybe he's the one responsible for paying all the bills. Don't read half the story. Also, I think their relationship is broken already, they were just keeping an "MVP" for the children. You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children, either through words or behavior. That could also tell that the wife is not that innocent too.
- pyre 14y ago
  IIRC, he cheated on his wife with his cousin. I don't have web reference. I went to an Einstein exhibit (at the OMSI) that had a bunch of hand-written letters and such by him (in addition to attempting to make his theories more accessible). Though 'cheated' might be a little relative. I think that he may have just been spending a lot of time with her and writing her love-letters rather than just sleeping with her. Here are some quick links I turned up on the exhibit: http://eastpdxnews.com/general-news-features/explore-space-and-time-at-omsi%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Ceinstein%E2%80%9D/ http://eastpdxnews.com/general-news-features/explore-space-a... http://www.flickr.com/groups/alberteinstein/pool/tags/omsi/ http://www.flickr.com/groups/alberteinstein/pool/tags/omsi/ The Flickr link has a bunch of photos of the documents, but I don't none of them are labelled, so it may be a bit time-consuming to search for anything specific.

chimeracoder 14y ago

> Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference between what we think of historical figures and how they actually were. It shows that people are complicated and multifaceted. While we have a tendency to either laud or vilify figures (with nothing in between), in reality, historical figures can be both "good" and "bad" in different aspects of their lives... just like the rest of us. My favorite example of this is Helen Keller[1]. Almost nobody these days knows anything about Helen Keller beyond the age of 18 - they know that learned to communicate despite being deaf and blind, but the nearly 70 years of her life after that are almost buried in history. Which is a shame, because Helen Keller would have been a notable figure in her own right even if it weren't for her disability[2]. But because she was a member of the official Socialist party, we can't use her story as an inspirational lesson and mention that she held political beliefs that we may or may not agree with. Instead have to make a judgement call as to whether her "good" or her "bad[3]" side is more important to teach, and then forget about the rest. Worse, this principle is applied in reverse to dehumanize people whom history has classified as villains. The result is that our history is filled with monochromatic caricatures, and we forget that, were we to see the complete picture, our modern-day "villains" may not look so different (for better or for worse!) [1] I believe Loewen talks about this in his excellent book Lies My Teacher Told Me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me) [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller#Political_activities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller#Political_activiti... [2] Naturally, this presumes that you either disagree with socialist politics or think that history lessons should be politically neutral, which is the predominant belief in the USA.

aufreak3 14y ago
It is more complicated I think even in the case of Einstein. The period of strained relationship mentioned coincides with the period during which he was building up General Relativity (which he published in 1916). Given the intensity of work that would've been needed for that (all that gorgeous new math and physical insights!) with wrong turns to avoid in every move, it is well conceivable that his marriage was placed at risk. This list might even have been his way of expressing that his life priority is finding a unified theory of everything. Now when I write that, does our welcoming of his great contributions need to make us guilty of also endorsing morals we perceive behind this "list of demands" he made of his wife?
- noonespecial 14y ago
  I like to think of it backwards; If I knew that I had a contribution to make to humanity as great as Einstein's, would I willingly sacrifice my relationship with my family to make it?
  - pfortuny 14y ago
    I hope I would not. The future is irrelevant because unknown in the face of a single present person.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    That's an extremely difficult moral problem. It's akin to asking yourself if you would rather rescue the child on the left or the 3 people on the right when given the choice. And then with various permutations for the child being yours or a stranger and/or the people on the right being your parents and / or strangers. We are not well equipped to make such decisions.
    - aufreak3 14y ago
      It is a tough moral problem, but one that societies of old have recognized and formalized. For example, most all religions have some formal structure where a person with a "higher calling" can take up a monkhood of some sort. Formal induction into monkhood made their severance from family ties public and contractual, much as the formal wedding ceremony publicizes a man-woman relationship. We just don't have a socially accepted notion of "scientific monkhood" yet I suppose.

ekianjo 14y ago

Well this was also a different time. You can hardly expect the early 1900s relationships between men and women to be on the same ground as the early 2000s ones. The world has (culturally) changed a lot since then. Do not judge people from the past with today's eyes.

redthrowaway 14y ago

Keep in mind that this was in 1919, when the accepted roles of men and women in marriages were very different. It's important, when reading historical documents, not to judge those discussed within by modern standards.

lostlogin 14y ago
Einstein was quite capable of thinking outside the norm. It's lacking context, but this sure doesn't look good.
pfortuny 14y ago
Cultivared men were not jerks then as a general rule.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  The position of women in society in 1914 is in no way comparable to today. We have come a long long way since then, and we still have a long long way to go. Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule. It's just that we are too blind to see (just like Einstein was in his day) that. Give it until 2110 to tell you just how much. In 1914 it was totally normal for women not to have the vote, not to have a say in the family finances and to be given consideration only after the sons in the family (but before the daughters). They were not considered capable of higher education (exceptions allowed, sometimes these dressed as men to get around the limitations) and so on. Cultivated men made those rules and whole pile of others, and decades of erosion by activists and others have restored the balance. Partially. Einstein was - as far as I can see here - not much different than what I know about how life was back then in general. Plenty of his peers would have done much worse than this, and only an extremely small (vanishingly small maybe) portion of society would have done much better. The fact that we have Einstein on a pedestal today does not mean that (a) he wasn't human and hence bound to make mistakes and (b) that he wasn't a product of his time.
  - derleth 14y ago
    > Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule. It's just that we are too blind to see (just like Einstein was in his day) that. Give it until 2110 to tell you just how much. Same with women, and we'll have to wait just as long to see it.

zachinglis 14y ago

The man was highly intelligent. Often intelligence and social skills seesaw (obviously not always.) What he did was wrong by what we know now, but I don't think it came from malice.

stickfigure 14y ago

Why do you automatically assume he is a jerk? Do you know more about his personal life than what was mentioned here? How do we know she wasn't a horrible person and this is actually a gracious response? I really have no idea, but I think it's pretty unfair to make character judgements from a single note out of context. Human relationships are complex.

andrewfelix 14y ago
The OP is making a judgement based on the evidence he has, not on the evidence he doesn't. You on the other hand are attempting to counter his argument with no evidence at all. If you want to counter the argument, present contrary evidence.
- chromic 14y ago
  He wanted to remain together just for the children. It's pretty safe to conclude he would not have done so if he had no children and that her presence is detrimental to him in some fashion. The terms listed are harsh, but they reflect his priorities quite well. Calling him a jerk is a bit out of line when he's prioritizing his children highly enough to try being a father when that isn't his most important goal.
  - andrewfelix 14y ago
    His most important goal doesn't appear to have been his children, but rather his work.
- Tichy 14y ago
  What a horrible way to argue. So the thought "the evidence might not be sufficient" never comes to your mind? Uncritical thinking like this ("knee jerk reactions") are one of the banes of humanity.
  - andrewfelix 14y ago
    I wasn't suggesting the OP's argument was fact. I'm simply suggesting one counters the argument by backing their own up. I think the down votes are a little harsh.

randomdata 14y ago

I have to say, I didn't really come away with the "demanding jerk" impression at all. She wanted him to stay for the kids and continue to provide for the family. In return, he wanted some help around the house and to ensure emotional disconnect from the relationship that was already dead by this point. I expect couples today would form similar arrangements in the same situation.

klepra 14y ago
So he was doing her a favour? Isn't he a father as well who should think for the best of his children too? So in other case he would just leave her with the children? Demanding 3 meals every day served or else is kind of disrespectful to someone you used to love.
- Tichy 14y ago
  3 meals a day might benefit the children, too. Not fighting in front of them is probably also a good idea. What does he propose that is bad for children?
  - klepra 14y ago
    Well, poster above me was implying that his demands were reasonable, as he is staying with her and children. If she wouldn't agree to him, he would leave and left her with children, that is not exactly unconditional love for his children and also sexist/macho.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      It's not a given that staying together is best for the children. If there is constant fighting, separation might be better for all of them.
      - klepra 14y ago
        You are right from today's perspective. But you have to keep in mind that was early 19th century, maybe seperation than was harder for wife and children. EDIT: I meant early 20th centory...

hgnb 14y ago

As a sole breadwinner,married to a woman who belittles me in front of our children, who, despite having full-time domestic help, grudgingly provides me with meals, who swings between extreme emotional neediness and rejection for weeks at a time and who occasionally physically attacks me in rages (she was diagnosed with a psychological disorder, but treatment is blocked by her family), I wish I could produce a list like that. I don't know if Einstein's marriage was similar to mine. Maybe he was a demanding jerk, but the possibility does exist that he was reacting to the circumstances he found himself in.

kevinconroy 14y ago
From one husband to another, hang in there man and in all sincerity, best of luck.
dredmorbius 14y ago
From someone who's been through part of that (though without the kids), if you can possibly find an out, do.
georgeorwell 14y ago
Assuming you truly have the desire to change things and that you actually want help, here is some unsolicited advice: go into individual therapy for yourself and if possible try to start couple's therapy too. Look for long-term once-a-week therapy and don't be afraid to shop around for therapists because it's important that you like the person. If that seems too daunting, order The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverly Engel or get it out of the library. It's a good starting point and in general books written by therapists are a great complement to therapy. http://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Abusive-Relationship-Abused-Abusing/dp/0471454036 http://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Abusive-Relationship-Abuse... If not for yourself, do this for your children, who suffer as much as you - if only because you and your wife are so important to them - but are helpless to change the situation.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  If mental illness is involved, you'll need more than just therapy. Treatment, patience, and...luck? Anyways, this isn't the place for relationship advice, and we are hardly qualified to give it.

wellpast 14y ago

I agree that this isn't enough to judge Einsteins morality, but it is interesting the tendency to want our heroes to be noble people. James Thurber wrote a wonderful short story about this -- The Greatest Man in the World.

csomar 14y ago

I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer. You'll need sufficient proof for that. Not just "heard". Looks like he was a demanding jerk as well. Really? Asking for 3 meals a day and laundry? Maybe he's the one responsible for paying all the bills. Don't read half the story. Also, I think their relationship is broken already, they were just keeping an "MVP" for the children. You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children, either through words or behavior. That could also tell that the wife is not that innocent too.

pyre 14y ago
IIRC, he cheated on his wife with his cousin. I don't have web reference. I went to an Einstein exhibit (at the OMSI) that had a bunch of hand-written letters and such by him (in addition to attempting to make his theories more accessible). Though 'cheated' might be a little relative. I think that he may have just been spending a lot of time with her and writing her love-letters rather than just sleeping with her. Here are some quick links I turned up on the exhibit: http://eastpdxnews.com/general-news-features/explore-space-and-time-at-omsi%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Ceinstein%E2%80%9D/ http://eastpdxnews.com/general-news-features/explore-space-a... http://www.flickr.com/groups/alberteinstein/pool/tags/omsi/ http://www.flickr.com/groups/alberteinstein/pool/tags/omsi/ The Flickr link has a bunch of photos of the documents, but I don't none of them are labelled, so it may be a bit time-consuming to search for anything specific.