5 ms·

It also doesn't really sit well with what I have observed in over 25 years of working for remote companies. We hired juniors and grew engineers up just fine. Th

by kxrm 4mo ago

It also doesn't really sit well with what I have observed in over 25 years of working for remote companies. We hired juniors and grew engineers up just fine. The problem, at least at orgs I have worked at in the last decade, is companies no longer want to invest in junior hires. I have been fortunate to have a C-level above me, who believes in hiring juniors, take over in the last year. We are hiring now and mentoring, but not enough companies around me are doing this.

SilverElfin 4mo ago
What do you mean by investing though? I think these days junior people have to just invest in themselves and learn by working right? It’s also hard for companies or managers to spend more on them when they can leave at any time, which means all that effort training them will just benefit some other employee. I’ve noticed younger generations are especially a lot less loyal, probably in response to abusive and exploitative employers and horror stories. But the downside is if employees have less loyalty themselves, then even caring companies and managers cannot justify being loyal to them. They end up losing that time invested and learn a hard lesson.
- knollimar 4mo ago
  Why be loyal without pensions, good benefits, and more than CoL raises? What inspires loyalty about someone paying under market rate because they refuse to see change?
- jvuygbbkuurx 4mo ago
  If they leave they got a better offer. Simply be more competetive.
- kxrm 4mo ago
  > a lot less loyal So have companies. This goes both ways and labor is just reacting to the "it's just business" excuse companies have been using for over 30 years.
- matheusmoreira 4mo ago
  > I’ve noticed younger generations are especially a lot less loyal Smart. Corporations aren't loyal either. > even caring companies and managers I'm not convinced there is such a thing.
  - SilverElfin 4mo ago
    > I'm not convinced there is such a thing. They absolutely exist. Companies that train and support junior employees definitely exist even if it’s not because they care but some economic reason. But both types are more and more rare as younger generations become more and more likely to job hop. You’re saying job hopping is smart - maybe it is. But my point is this causes ALL companies to invest as little as possible and to disregard junior candidates. Even if they wish they could have things be different.
nickff 4mo ago
People job hopping when they get past 'junior' status is what seems to have caused the reluctance to hire juniors, especially combined with the surge of 'opportunists' who started getting comp-sci degrees when it became obvious that it was the easiest way to earn a comfortable living. The job-hoppers made it obvious that it was just cheaper and faster to hire intermediate and senior developers (rather than investing in juniors to learn the basics, then have to pay them to stay). The opportunists further reduced the value proposition of developers to employers as many job-seekers (particularly juniors) have little passion or aptitude for the job, and will never be 'stellar'.
- munk-a 4mo ago
  If your junior employees frequently job hop as soon as they have been trained up then your company is mismanaged. There are always personal reasons (I ended up immigrating to another country as I was coming into Senior-hood because my partner couldn't affordably immigrate into the US) but if it's a pattern then that pattern is owed to undercompensation and other failures of management. In the 2000s it was seen as very fashionable to job hop frequently, but it was a biased impression that was assumed to be nationwide while it was only really common in SV with the hugely lucrative signing contracts folks like Google, Meta et. all were handing out.
  - nickff 4mo ago
    What is the benefit (to the company) of paying to train a junior, which costs their wage, along with a significant proportion of a senior’s wage, if there is no long-term savings on the junior’s wages later on? This seems like a prisoner’s dilemma where every company counts on another to do the ‘apprenticeship’ training.
    - Saline9515 4mo ago
      In other sectors, juniors are paid a subsistence wage for a few years, so they are still profitable for the company during training. A plumber still needs a cheap pair of arms to move around a bathtub.
    - 4mo ago

by kxrm 4mo ago

SilverElfin 4mo ago

What do you mean by investing though? I think these days junior people have to just invest in themselves and learn by working right? It’s also hard for companies or managers to spend more on them when they can leave at any time, which means all that effort training them will just benefit some other employee. I’ve noticed younger generations are especially a lot less loyal, probably in response to abusive and exploitative employers and horror stories. But the downside is if employees have less loyalty themselves, then even caring companies and managers cannot justify being loyal to them. They end up losing that time invested and learn a hard lesson.

knollimar 4mo ago
Why be loyal without pensions, good benefits, and more than CoL raises? What inspires loyalty about someone paying under market rate because they refuse to see change?
jvuygbbkuurx 4mo ago
If they leave they got a better offer. Simply be more competetive.
kxrm 4mo ago
> a lot less loyal So have companies. This goes both ways and labor is just reacting to the "it's just business" excuse companies have been using for over 30 years.
matheusmoreira 4mo ago
> I’ve noticed younger generations are especially a lot less loyal Smart. Corporations aren't loyal either. > even caring companies and managers I'm not convinced there is such a thing.
- SilverElfin 4mo ago
  > I'm not convinced there is such a thing. They absolutely exist. Companies that train and support junior employees definitely exist even if it’s not because they care but some economic reason. But both types are more and more rare as younger generations become more and more likely to job hop. You’re saying job hopping is smart - maybe it is. But my point is this causes ALL companies to invest as little as possible and to disregard junior candidates. Even if they wish they could have things be different.

nickff 4mo ago

People job hopping when they get past 'junior' status is what seems to have caused the reluctance to hire juniors, especially combined with the surge of 'opportunists' who started getting comp-sci degrees when it became obvious that it was the easiest way to earn a comfortable living. The job-hoppers made it obvious that it was just cheaper and faster to hire intermediate and senior developers (rather than investing in juniors to learn the basics, then have to pay them to stay). The opportunists further reduced the value proposition of developers to employers as many job-seekers (particularly juniors) have little passion or aptitude for the job, and will never be 'stellar'.

munk-a 4mo ago
If your junior employees frequently job hop as soon as they have been trained up then your company is mismanaged. There are always personal reasons (I ended up immigrating to another country as I was coming into Senior-hood because my partner couldn't affordably immigrate into the US) but if it's a pattern then that pattern is owed to undercompensation and other failures of management. In the 2000s it was seen as very fashionable to job hop frequently, but it was a biased impression that was assumed to be nationwide while it was only really common in SV with the hugely lucrative signing contracts folks like Google, Meta et. all were handing out.
- nickff 4mo ago
  What is the benefit (to the company) of paying to train a junior, which costs their wage, along with a significant proportion of a senior’s wage, if there is no long-term savings on the junior’s wages later on? This seems like a prisoner’s dilemma where every company counts on another to do the ‘apprenticeship’ training.
  - Saline9515 4mo ago
    In other sectors, juniors are paid a subsistence wage for a few years, so they are still profitable for the company during training. A plumber still needs a cheap pair of arms to move around a bathtub.
  - 4mo ago