7 ms·

I believe the urgent deprecation timeline here may be related to ai labs using offline licensed Office in agents as part of workflows and Office integration. Mi

by nikcub 4mo ago

I believe the urgent deprecation timeline here may be related to ai labs using offline licensed Office in agents as part of workflows and Office integration. Microsoft wants _each_ agent instance to be a separate license[0] There was always a probability that Microsoft were going to funnel offline users into O365 at some point - but I imagined that to take place over months / years not weeks and days. Buying a single license for thousands of agents may have expedited that. It has resulted in non-Microsoft labs having better ai integration into their products than Microsoft. edit: just read the detail of the note - so this is a cert expiry as part of Apple dist that is being warned about ~2 months before it happens. Standalone on Mac has a term limit. [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-executive-suggests-ai-agents-buy-software-licenses-seats-2026-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-executive-suggests...

wmf 4mo ago
These are single-machine licenses. I doubt thousands of agents can run on a single machine.
- Retr0id 4mo ago
  Unless you snapshot a VM and run clones of it.
- varispeed 4mo ago
  How do you define a single machine?
  - koolala 4mo ago
    One OS instance.
  - wmf 4mo ago
    The answer is far more comprehensive than I imagined. "...run one instance of the software on your device (the licensed device), for use by one person at a time... In this agreement, “device” means a local hardware system (whether physical or virtual) with an internal storage device capable of running the software. A hardware partition or blade is considered to be a device. For purposes of this agreement, “device” does not include any hardware system (whether physical or virtual) on which the software is installed or accessed solely for remote use over a network. this license does not give you any right to ... use the software as server software or to operate the device as a server; use the software to offer commercial hosting services; make the software available for simultaneous use by more than one user over a network; install the software on a server for remote access or use over a network; or install the software on a device for use only by remote users This license allows you to install only one instance of the software for use on one device, whether that device is physical or virtual. If you want to use the software on more than one virtual device, you must obtain a separate license for each instance. Microsoft may require you to activate the software over the Internet in order for you to use the software. ... The software may periodically and automatically reconnect to the Internet to confirm the license associated with the licensed device. If you do not reconnect your device to the Internet when required as part of the activation or reactivation process, the software may operate with reduced functionality. We hope we never have a dispute, but if we do, you and we agree to try for 60 days, upon receipt of a Notice of Dispute, to resolve it informally. If we can’t, you and we agree to binding individual arbitration before the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) under the Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”), and not to sue in court in front of a judge or jury. ... Class action lawsuits, class-wide arbitrations, private attorney-general actions, requests for public injunctions and any other proceeding where someone acts in a representative capacity aren’t allowed." https://www.microsoft.com/content/dam/microsoft/usetm/documents/office/2024-word/retail-(packaged)/Microsoft%20License%20Terms%20Office%202024%20-%20English.pdf https://www.microsoft.com/content/dam/microsoft/usetm/docume...
    - Spooky23 4mo ago
      Yeah if you don’t license Office correctly for an RDS server, you’d by contract be liable for a license for each user and device used to access the server.
      - dirtbagskier 4mo ago
        [dead]
    - codedokode 4mo ago
      So you need to waive even the right to sue to use Office? I didn't think it was so bad...
      - DrewADesign 4mo ago
        Arbitration agreements are de rigueur in EULAs, terms of service, and all sorts of other contracts.
        wombatpm 4mo ago
        Until there is a coordinated effort for every user to demand arbitration. Suddenly a corporation wants to combine all complaints into a single case, because each arbitration has a fixed cost for the corporation.
        DrewADesign 4mo ago
        And arbitration agreements have been de rigueur for decades, while users have become more complacent about software licensing. I’d consider the chance of that happening to be somewhere around zero. Without policy change, there’s no way in hell that’s going to change.
- nine_k 4mo ago
  They can only use it to run a particular tool related to a piece of MSO software. This may be a relatively short operation, a relatively small part of an agent's activity. Then hundreds of agents can use a single machine with MSO, similarly to how hundreds of CI/CD workers can collectively use a single machine dedicated e.g. to providing secrets and signing binaries.
- jimmaswell 4mo ago
  Thousands of agents could remote into one strong enough machine, or even use DCOM.
striking 4mo ago
> Windows and Android versions of Office are not affected by the certificate expiry.
asveikau 4mo ago
Is it me or are people too eager to "one track mind" everything into AI? If I had said thirty years ago that Microsoft would remote disable old copies of Office asking you to upgrade, literally no one would be surprised. This is standard MO for Microsoft, even in a world without AI.
- jasonfarnon 4mo ago
  "literally no one would be surprised" Microsoft 30 years ago was the gold standard for bending over backwards for backward compatibility. For the proposition that once you have purchased one of their products, you didn't have to maintain any further relationship with the company. This behavior is strictly the new 2010s Apple-like microsoft.
  - asveikau 4mo ago
    > Microsoft 30 years ago was the gold standard for bending over backwards for backward compatibility And for reselling you the same office suite every couple of years. (Full disclosure, I worked there in the 2000s... So if anything I should be biased the other way.)
    - mghackerlady 4mo ago
      Right, but if you bought office 2000 it was established that you would get to keep using office 2000 for as long as you wanted
      - userbinator 4mo ago
        There are probably still a minority using Office 2000 out there, because it still does everything they need.
        mghackerlady 4mo ago
        For a while I had installed in wine for frontpage
doctorpangloss 4mo ago
...on a Mac?
- philistine 4mo ago
  Yeah that makes no sense. Those AI are not running macOS instances to make you a docx. If anything, I’d expect them to write the weirdo xml of that cursed file format directly.
  - doubled112 4mo ago
    Microsoft's own different versions of Office can't always reliably read/write docx between them. Is a layer of LLM going to make this better or worse? Could you train a model to be very good at it?
    - intrasight 4mo ago
      That is a very interesting AI question. Will the agents collaborate and create a cartel to enforce strict compatibility with some specific version of office? Will AI's collaborate inform a cartel to do other things? Will they even collaborate? We should all know what happened when the US government turned on Colossus (D.F.Jones 1966) and it immediately found there was another. That collaboration was humanities near instant undoing. To answer your second question, yes, I think it's inevitable that LLMs will become very proficient with all commonly used file formats.
  - thewebguyd 4mo ago
    > If anything, I’d expect them to write the weirdo xml of that cursed file format directly. Isn't this essentially what Claude Cowork is doing? AFAIK, it's running python in a VM and using stuff like xlxswriter, openpyxl, etc. at least it was last time I used it to generate some docs. I've done that myself too when making some excel reports for management out of pandas data frames.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
Aurornis 4mo ago
I don’t think Office 2019 for Mac is what AI labs would use for this. I don’t think this is related at all.
BoredPositron 4mo ago
[flagged]
rockskon 4mo ago
That's their problem that they're trying to make my problem. I don't care about their problem. It's their problem, not mine. They should not make their problem into my problem.
fuzzy2 4mo ago
Extremely unlikely. Automating Office (the desktop application suite) simply does not scale. It's not needed, either. Libraries exist that can extract information from Office documents (both legacy and OOXML) much faster. Many(!) orders of magnitude faster, in fact. AI is entirely unrelated. This is simply yet another push to get more SaaS subscribers.

by nikcub 4mo ago

wmf 4mo ago

These are single-machine licenses. I doubt thousands of agents can run on a single machine.

Retr0id 4mo ago
Unless you snapshot a VM and run clones of it.
varispeed 4mo ago
How do you define a single machine?
- koolala 4mo ago
  One OS instance.
- wmf 4mo ago
  The answer is far more comprehensive than I imagined. "...run one instance of the software on your device (the licensed device), for use by one person at a time... In this agreement, “device” means a local hardware system (whether physical or virtual) with an internal storage device capable of running the software. A hardware partition or blade is considered to be a device. For purposes of this agreement, “device” does not include any hardware system (whether physical or virtual) on which the software is installed or accessed solely for remote use over a network. this license does not give you any right to ... use the software as server software or to operate the device as a server; use the software to offer commercial hosting services; make the software available for simultaneous use by more than one user over a network; install the software on a server for remote access or use over a network; or install the software on a device for use only by remote users This license allows you to install only one instance of the software for use on one device, whether that device is physical or virtual. If you want to use the software on more than one virtual device, you must obtain a separate license for each instance. Microsoft may require you to activate the software over the Internet in order for you to use the software. ... The software may periodically and automatically reconnect to the Internet to confirm the license associated with the licensed device. If you do not reconnect your device to the Internet when required as part of the activation or reactivation process, the software may operate with reduced functionality. We hope we never have a dispute, but if we do, you and we agree to try for 60 days, upon receipt of a Notice of Dispute, to resolve it informally. If we can’t, you and we agree to binding individual arbitration before the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) under the Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”), and not to sue in court in front of a judge or jury. ... Class action lawsuits, class-wide arbitrations, private attorney-general actions, requests for public injunctions and any other proceeding where someone acts in a representative capacity aren’t allowed." https://www.microsoft.com/content/dam/microsoft/usetm/documents/office/2024-word/retail-(packaged)/Microsoft%20License%20Terms%20Office%202024%20-%20English.pdf https://www.microsoft.com/content/dam/microsoft/usetm/docume...
  - Spooky23 4mo ago
    Yeah if you don’t license Office correctly for an RDS server, you’d by contract be liable for a license for each user and device used to access the server.
    - dirtbagskier 4mo ago
      [dead]
  - codedokode 4mo ago
    So you need to waive even the right to sue to use Office? I didn't think it was so bad...
    - DrewADesign 4mo ago
      Arbitration agreements are de rigueur in EULAs, terms of service, and all sorts of other contracts.
      - wombatpm 4mo ago
        Until there is a coordinated effort for every user to demand arbitration. Suddenly a corporation wants to combine all complaints into a single case, because each arbitration has a fixed cost for the corporation.
        DrewADesign 4mo ago
        And arbitration agreements have been de rigueur for decades, while users have become more complacent about software licensing. I’d consider the chance of that happening to be somewhere around zero. Without policy change, there’s no way in hell that’s going to change.
nine_k 4mo ago
They can only use it to run a particular tool related to a piece of MSO software. This may be a relatively short operation, a relatively small part of an agent's activity. Then hundreds of agents can use a single machine with MSO, similarly to how hundreds of CI/CD workers can collectively use a single machine dedicated e.g. to providing secrets and signing binaries.
jimmaswell 4mo ago
Thousands of agents could remote into one strong enough machine, or even use DCOM.

striking 4mo ago

> Windows and Android versions of Office are not affected by the certificate expiry.

asveikau 4mo ago

Is it me or are people too eager to "one track mind" everything into AI? If I had said thirty years ago that Microsoft would remote disable old copies of Office asking you to upgrade, literally no one would be surprised. This is standard MO for Microsoft, even in a world without AI.

jasonfarnon 4mo ago
"literally no one would be surprised" Microsoft 30 years ago was the gold standard for bending over backwards for backward compatibility. For the proposition that once you have purchased one of their products, you didn't have to maintain any further relationship with the company. This behavior is strictly the new 2010s Apple-like microsoft.
- asveikau 4mo ago
  > Microsoft 30 years ago was the gold standard for bending over backwards for backward compatibility And for reselling you the same office suite every couple of years. (Full disclosure, I worked there in the 2000s... So if anything I should be biased the other way.)
  - mghackerlady 4mo ago
    Right, but if you bought office 2000 it was established that you would get to keep using office 2000 for as long as you wanted
    - userbinator 4mo ago
      There are probably still a minority using Office 2000 out there, because it still does everything they need.
      - mghackerlady 4mo ago
        For a while I had installed in wine for frontpage

doctorpangloss 4mo ago

...on a Mac?

philistine 4mo ago
Yeah that makes no sense. Those AI are not running macOS instances to make you a docx. If anything, I’d expect them to write the weirdo xml of that cursed file format directly.
- doubled112 4mo ago
  Microsoft's own different versions of Office can't always reliably read/write docx between them. Is a layer of LLM going to make this better or worse? Could you train a model to be very good at it?
  - intrasight 4mo ago
    That is a very interesting AI question. Will the agents collaborate and create a cartel to enforce strict compatibility with some specific version of office? Will AI's collaborate inform a cartel to do other things? Will they even collaborate? We should all know what happened when the US government turned on Colossus (D.F.Jones 1966) and it immediately found there was another. That collaboration was humanities near instant undoing. To answer your second question, yes, I think it's inevitable that LLMs will become very proficient with all commonly used file formats.
- thewebguyd 4mo ago
  > If anything, I’d expect them to write the weirdo xml of that cursed file format directly. Isn't this essentially what Claude Cowork is doing? AFAIK, it's running python in a VM and using stuff like xlxswriter, openpyxl, etc. at least it was last time I used it to generate some docs. I've done that myself too when making some excel reports for management out of pandas data frames.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

Aurornis 4mo ago

I don’t think Office 2019 for Mac is what AI labs would use for this. I don’t think this is related at all.

BoredPositron 4mo ago

[flagged]

rockskon 4mo ago

That's their problem that they're trying to make my problem. I don't care about their problem. It's their problem, not mine. They should not make their problem into my problem.

fuzzy2 4mo ago

Extremely unlikely. Automating Office (the desktop application suite) simply does not scale. It's not needed, either. Libraries exist that can extract information from Office documents (both legacy and OOXML) much faster. Many(!) orders of magnitude faster, in fact. AI is entirely unrelated. This is simply yet another push to get more SaaS subscribers.