3 ms·

There's no data to prove this assertion, unfortunately.

by matchbok3 5mo ago

lucky_cloud 5mo ago
There are plenty of studies backed by plenty of data to support exactly these assertions.
- matchbok3 5mo ago
  There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all. A union's job is to protect the union. Nothing else.
  - qmmmur 5mo ago
    I would be interested to understand more about what you think unions and organisation have done for working rights over the last 100 years.
    - matchbok3 5mo ago
      That is an entirely different argument that's not particularly germane to this topic. One can agree that unions, in the past, have helped workers, and also understand that they are not always in the best interest of the general public. It's complex, but possible!
      - Apocryphon 5mo ago
        Then that is an argument to reform and innovate on unions, not do away with them altogether.
        smsm42 5mo ago
        "Are unions net benefit for the general public" and "whether reforming or abolishing the unions is the best course of action for the general public" are two separate questions. The unions could be beneficial (and still a reform could improve this benefit) or they could be harmful (but a reform could make them beneficial without abolishing them). The original claim was they are beneficial right now, in heir current form, but no actual proof had been provided.
        Apocryphon 5mo ago
        If it’s a matter of proof, these are all links already posted on this site: https://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/union-effect-in-california-1/ https://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/union-effect-in-california-... https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-decline-inequality-rises/ https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-decline-inequality-ri... https://werd.io/unions-work/ https://werd.io/unions-work/ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-13/unions-did-great-things-for-the-american-working-class https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-13/unions... https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/19/20727283/unions-good-income-inequality-wealth https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/19/20727283/u...
        matchbok3 5mo ago
        Do you think Vox has ever written about how transit unions increase costs by mandating redundant workers and work against technology that could automate trains? Do you think Box has ever written about how Detroit unions fought EVs and AVs and automation that could result in cheaper cars? Why do you think that is?
        Apocryphon 5mo ago
        So is that an ad hominem crossed with tu quoque, or an ad hominem crossed with a false equivalence?
        ranguna 4mo ago
        Like a wise person once said: That is an entirely different argument that's not particularly germane to this topic.
      - Cyph0n 5mo ago
        No, that is not a “complex” position at all. On the contrary, it’s a fairly simple position where you take no strong stance but still want to claim the positive aspects from each side. Are unions universally good? No, because humans are in the loop, and humans can do bad things. Does that change the fact that the concept of a union is one of the greatest innovations in all of human history? No. Can unions today help disparate human workers collectively improve their working conditions? Yes, because this is what unions were designed for, and I think is the key outcome the Rockstar folks are betting on. For a recent example, read up on the Samsung union bargaining for company wide bonuses in the wake of the huge profits made off the surge in demand for memory.
        matchbok3 5mo ago
        The Samsung deal is exactly what I'm talking about. It is not all entirely good. Everyone at Samsung not working in chips got screwed. And those lucky few union members used their power to extract an unfair amount of money from the company. This will cause the company to lean towards other avenues in the future, potentially harming everyone else. Why are those people getting a huge check? Not because they worked harder. Because AI came along and made their product more valuable. https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/27/world/asia/samsung-ai-profit-bonus-workers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/27/world/asia/samsung-ai-pro... > But a smaller union associated with workers in the consumer electronics division — which boycotted the negotiations and whose 15,000 members were excluded from the vote — accused the lead union of neglecting their interests, and decried the deal as “discriminatory.” Under the agreement, workers in the consumer electronics division are expected to get payouts that are a fraction of those of their semiconductor division peers.
        kelnos 5mo ago
        > And those lucky few union members used their power to extract an unfair amount of money from the company. Why is it an unfair amount, though? Who gets to decide what compensation is fair and what isn't?
        Cyph0n 5mo ago
        And how exactly is this situation worse than the unfair allocation of salaries and bonuses in companies today? Even within the same company, people can get paid more based on the org/division they work in (e.g. core AI teams), or even based on their (team or individual) perceived value to higher ups. At least with the Samsung union, the decision is being made bottom up vs. top down.
  - jayd16 5mo ago
    > Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all. After the first comment this really reads like "only Sith deal in absolutes."
tossandthrow 5mo ago
I trust that you are able to translate yourself https://www.ae.dk/debatindlaeg/2023-05-staerke-fagforeninger-oeger-produktiviteten-i-samfundet https://www.ae.dk/debatindlaeg/2023-05-staerke-fagforeninger...
- matchbok3 5mo ago
  There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all.
  - karmakurtisaani 5mo ago
    > Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality) Certainly you can quantify this poor quality and show it's due to unions and not, say, lack of resources? > Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc) 2 drivers per subway car sounds like (at least with old tech) a good thing for everyone's safety. > Auto industry fighting EVs. Sounds like this was more the companies themselves, but I don't have the details. In my view unions are largely a good thing to balance out companies power, but I've also heard stories where they have become too strong. There's nuance to the matter, but I feel like at least the US could use much more and stronger unions.
    - dcrazy 5mo ago
      Anecdotally, if increasing resources improved outcomes, California would have fantastic education results, as would every purely economic intervention in low-median-income school districts. Teachers may be underpaid on a time/effort basis compared to other jobs, but paying them more doesn’t actually improve outcomes. I am no expert—not even a parent—but my understanding is that curriculum choice and implementation are really, really important. (Can’t say how important relative to, say, family situation.) According to one news report I read, 50% of the public school teachers in California are actively ignoring the state’s recent switch back to a phonics-based language curriculum, and the union itself is anti-phonics. Is the union just representing the will of those 50% of law-defying teachers, or are the teachers inferring their behavior from a politicized union?
lawn 5mo ago
[flagged]
- Helloworldboy 5mo ago
  [dead]

There's no data to prove this assertion, unfortunately.

lucky_cloud 5mo ago

There are plenty of studies backed by plenty of data to support exactly these assertions.

matchbok3 5mo ago
There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all. A union's job is to protect the union. Nothing else.
- qmmmur 5mo ago
  I would be interested to understand more about what you think unions and organisation have done for working rights over the last 100 years.
  - matchbok3 5mo ago
    That is an entirely different argument that's not particularly germane to this topic. One can agree that unions, in the past, have helped workers, and also understand that they are not always in the best interest of the general public. It's complex, but possible!
    - Apocryphon 5mo ago
      Then that is an argument to reform and innovate on unions, not do away with them altogether.
      - smsm42 5mo ago
        "Are unions net benefit for the general public" and "whether reforming or abolishing the unions is the best course of action for the general public" are two separate questions. The unions could be beneficial (and still a reform could improve this benefit) or they could be harmful (but a reform could make them beneficial without abolishing them). The original claim was they are beneficial right now, in heir current form, but no actual proof had been provided.
        Apocryphon 5mo ago
        If it’s a matter of proof, these are all links already posted on this site: https://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/union-effect-in-california-1/ https://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/union-effect-in-california-... https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-decline-inequality-rises/ https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-decline-inequality-ri... https://werd.io/unions-work/ https://werd.io/unions-work/ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-13/unions-did-great-things-for-the-american-working-class https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-13/unions... https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/19/20727283/unions-good-income-inequality-wealth https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/19/20727283/u...
        matchbok3 5mo ago
        Do you think Vox has ever written about how transit unions increase costs by mandating redundant workers and work against technology that could automate trains? Do you think Box has ever written about how Detroit unions fought EVs and AVs and automation that could result in cheaper cars? Why do you think that is?
        Apocryphon 5mo ago
        So is that an ad hominem crossed with tu quoque, or an ad hominem crossed with a false equivalence?
        ranguna 4mo ago
        Like a wise person once said: That is an entirely different argument that's not particularly germane to this topic.
    - Cyph0n 5mo ago
      No, that is not a “complex” position at all. On the contrary, it’s a fairly simple position where you take no strong stance but still want to claim the positive aspects from each side. Are unions universally good? No, because humans are in the loop, and humans can do bad things. Does that change the fact that the concept of a union is one of the greatest innovations in all of human history? No. Can unions today help disparate human workers collectively improve their working conditions? Yes, because this is what unions were designed for, and I think is the key outcome the Rockstar folks are betting on. For a recent example, read up on the Samsung union bargaining for company wide bonuses in the wake of the huge profits made off the surge in demand for memory.
      - matchbok3 5mo ago
        The Samsung deal is exactly what I'm talking about. It is not all entirely good. Everyone at Samsung not working in chips got screwed. And those lucky few union members used their power to extract an unfair amount of money from the company. This will cause the company to lean towards other avenues in the future, potentially harming everyone else. Why are those people getting a huge check? Not because they worked harder. Because AI came along and made their product more valuable. https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/27/world/asia/samsung-ai-profit-bonus-workers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/27/world/asia/samsung-ai-pro... > But a smaller union associated with workers in the consumer electronics division — which boycotted the negotiations and whose 15,000 members were excluded from the vote — accused the lead union of neglecting their interests, and decried the deal as “discriminatory.” Under the agreement, workers in the consumer electronics division are expected to get payouts that are a fraction of those of their semiconductor division peers.
        kelnos 5mo ago
        > And those lucky few union members used their power to extract an unfair amount of money from the company. Why is it an unfair amount, though? Who gets to decide what compensation is fair and what isn't?
        Cyph0n 5mo ago
        And how exactly is this situation worse than the unfair allocation of salaries and bonuses in companies today? Even within the same company, people can get paid more based on the org/division they work in (e.g. core AI teams), or even based on their (team or individual) perceived value to higher ups. At least with the Samsung union, the decision is being made bottom up vs. top down.
- jayd16 5mo ago
  > Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all. After the first comment this really reads like "only Sith deal in absolutes."

tossandthrow 5mo ago

I trust that you are able to translate yourself https://www.ae.dk/debatindlaeg/2023-05-staerke-fagforeninger-oeger-produktiviteten-i-samfundet https://www.ae.dk/debatindlaeg/2023-05-staerke-fagforeninger...

matchbok3 5mo ago
There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all.
- karmakurtisaani 5mo ago
  > Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality) Certainly you can quantify this poor quality and show it's due to unions and not, say, lack of resources? > Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc) 2 drivers per subway car sounds like (at least with old tech) a good thing for everyone's safety. > Auto industry fighting EVs. Sounds like this was more the companies themselves, but I don't have the details. In my view unions are largely a good thing to balance out companies power, but I've also heard stories where they have become too strong. There's nuance to the matter, but I feel like at least the US could use much more and stronger unions.
  - dcrazy 5mo ago
    Anecdotally, if increasing resources improved outcomes, California would have fantastic education results, as would every purely economic intervention in low-median-income school districts. Teachers may be underpaid on a time/effort basis compared to other jobs, but paying them more doesn’t actually improve outcomes. I am no expert—not even a parent—but my understanding is that curriculum choice and implementation are really, really important. (Can’t say how important relative to, say, family situation.) According to one news report I read, 50% of the public school teachers in California are actively ignoring the state’s recent switch back to a phonics-based language curriculum, and the union itself is anti-phonics. Is the union just representing the will of those 50% of law-defying teachers, or are the teachers inferring their behavior from a politicized union?

lawn 5mo ago

[flagged]

Helloworldboy 5mo ago
[dead]