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Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized. What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same

Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized. What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better?

squigz 5mo ago
Is there any reason to believe North American cars wouldn't be even worse if there weren't unions?
- SV_BubbleTime 5mo ago
  Hello, long-time automotive EE here… The absolute insanity I’ve seen from the UAW would make your fucking head spin right off. It took me a LONG time to accept it. Ignore my first hand experience with your political ideology, it doesn’t bother me. But, I’ll tell you I’ve been at on-site RVs and BBQs with dozens of on the clock workers. I know a guy making 80/hr to nap and watch TV in his RV for six of his eight hour shift, and this was not uncommon. I know him, because he is THE GUY that can get a vital operation checked out and no one else. I’m not debating history or ideology. Just experience of a long time working adjacent to UAW. When I go to on-site to Mexico it’s like an entirely different industry.
  - kotaKat 5mo ago
    Don't forget all the guys that got caught by Rob Wolchek on a Fox investigative news report down on their break at the Jeep plant drinking beer and smoking pot in a park then hopping back in their Chrysler products to scamper back to the plant to build some more sloppy Jeeps... apparently a crooked enough arbitrator said that wasn't enough evidence and forced their jobs back. The UAW does nothing good. Looking at my 2018 Mexican-built Ford Fusion I've had no major defects. Looking at our 2020 UAW-built Ford Escape was nothing but quality issue after quality issue. When the trim literally falls off the windows, you know we've screwed the pooch. There were moments I genuinely wish I could have driven it back to Kentucky to go make some slovenly fuck repair what they didn't put on the thing right the first time. Quality is no longer "job 1".
AndrewKemendo 5mo ago
Japanese auto workers have been unionized since the 60s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automobile_Workers%27_Unions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automob... In fact part of the SCAP mandates after World War II two during the MacArthur occupation was specifically to form powerful unions in Japan
- amazingamazing 5mo ago
  Interesting - but seems like Toyota in particular had their cars produced by non unionized group producing workers at least for some period: https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-toyota-plant-launch-campaign-to-join-the-uaw/ https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-t... Seems hard to compare since there is no comparison in Japan that is not unionized But given that China is now winning my original point stands
  - AndrewKemendo 5mo ago
    Hey as long as you can find a reason you are right, that’s really what all life is about right?
    - amazingamazing 5mo ago
      Huh? Are you projecting something here?
      - evdubs 5mo ago
        Is it so difficult to say, "You're right. I'm wrong. There are actually unions for autoworkers in both China and Japan." ?
  - ranguna 5mo ago
    Your point turned from "here are some examples" to "here's a sample of one". And that "one" is so different, society wise, from all the other ones that I'm not sure is useful here other that "if you live in a society like this that's just starting to massively produce world wide in this sector other than a brand or two they were doing before, then maybe there can be no union workers compared to the other companies that have been producing world wide for decades across multiple models and brands"
afavour 5mo ago
Correlation != causation. There are a ton of differences between the US car industry and those in other countries, unionization is just one factor. As a counter anecdote I’d point to Boeing’s non-union facilities, which have produced notably less reliable airplanes than their union locations ever did.
- amazingamazing 5mo ago
  Aren’t most boeing made by unionized workers? If by both that seems like a good comparison to make
  - dcrazy 5mo ago
    Boeing actually offers a fascinating direct comparison. 787 Max has historically been assembled in two locations: unionized Renton, WA and non-union Charleston, SC. The Charleston planes were notorious for needing rework at Renton before they were airworthy. But the conclusion is muddied by the fact that Boeing has been making planes in the Seattle area for a century, so the talent pool is larger and more qualified than those they could find in or persuade to move to Charleston. Also, the whole Charleston move was one of many drastic cost-cutting efforts, including the spinoff of Spirit Aerospace that ultimately led to the door blowout on the Alaska Air MAX 9.
simonjgreen 5mo ago
The unionised Openreach in UK who are really the de facto layer 1 network provider telco build infrastructure to a staggeringly higher quality than most of the move fast startup alternatives. Aviation unions force very high standards and represent a lot of the developments in safety and procedures. Nuclear power is heavily unionised, resulting in a very stable and highly qualified workforce. Unions in film and tv have done great work defending artists rights and protecting actors, writers, crew, and others from predatory behaviour by studios. Fire fighter unions stand against unsafe demands and protect the crews in ways the individuals can’t, resulting in meaningful change. (I’m aware of UK but projecting and assuming this applies internationally) I could go on…
- amazingamazing 5mo ago
  I see the benefit of a union for the workers, but your examples seem strange. They do not illustrate that a union somehow results in a better product. If that were self evident how come there has never been a company that started with employees unionized? To get this supposed benefit
  - AndrewKemendo 5mo ago
    They’re called cooperatives Mondragon is a extremely large well structured cooperative that did exactly this and is a hallmark of success for anarchist cooperatives worldwide
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
    - bit-anarchist 5mo ago
      It's a bit reversed, labor unions are cooperatives, not the other way around, as cooperatives are more flexible in arrangement than unions. Don't disagree with the rest of the comment though. EDIT: also, I wouldn't consider coops an anarchist victory over traditional private companies anymore than democracy over monarchy. The corporation > worker hierarchy is still there, even with the different share distribution. It's a good demonstration of an alternative and underappreciated corporate structure, tho.
evdubs 5mo ago
> What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better? Here's a layup: art. Remember the writer's union strike in 2007-2008? All of the shows whose writers were on strike that still went on were terrible. Edit: also, the purpose of a union is not to "produce something better". The purpose of a union is to protect workers' rights. They generally serve their purpose very well.
paddim8 5mo ago
Volvo workers in Sweden are unionised
VanTheBrand 5mo ago
But Japanese autoworkers are unionized and have been for a very long time? So there is an example of a unionized group producing a great product!
- dcrazy 5mo ago
  I’d be hesitant to directly draw broad generalizations about unions across countries. Labor practices and historical context are very different, and the U.A.W. is a singular creature.
humoctopus 5mo ago
most japanese auto workers are unionized, though unions work a little differently there.
insane_dreamer 5mo ago
> japanese and chinese which are not unionized might want to check your facts before posting
thrance 5mo ago
American manufacturers suck because of rampant financialization, not unions. They have prioritized the needs shareholders over those of consumers for a while now. Your hatred of workers striving for better working conditions is disturbing. Maybe there are more important things in life than conspicuous consumption and filling one's home with cheap garbage?

Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized. What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better?

squigz 5mo ago

Is there any reason to believe North American cars wouldn't be even worse if there weren't unions?

SV_BubbleTime 5mo ago
Hello, long-time automotive EE here… The absolute insanity I’ve seen from the UAW would make your fucking head spin right off. It took me a LONG time to accept it. Ignore my first hand experience with your political ideology, it doesn’t bother me. But, I’ll tell you I’ve been at on-site RVs and BBQs with dozens of on the clock workers. I know a guy making 80/hr to nap and watch TV in his RV for six of his eight hour shift, and this was not uncommon. I know him, because he is THE GUY that can get a vital operation checked out and no one else. I’m not debating history or ideology. Just experience of a long time working adjacent to UAW. When I go to on-site to Mexico it’s like an entirely different industry.
- kotaKat 5mo ago
  Don't forget all the guys that got caught by Rob Wolchek on a Fox investigative news report down on their break at the Jeep plant drinking beer and smoking pot in a park then hopping back in their Chrysler products to scamper back to the plant to build some more sloppy Jeeps... apparently a crooked enough arbitrator said that wasn't enough evidence and forced their jobs back. The UAW does nothing good. Looking at my 2018 Mexican-built Ford Fusion I've had no major defects. Looking at our 2020 UAW-built Ford Escape was nothing but quality issue after quality issue. When the trim literally falls off the windows, you know we've screwed the pooch. There were moments I genuinely wish I could have driven it back to Kentucky to go make some slovenly fuck repair what they didn't put on the thing right the first time. Quality is no longer "job 1".

AndrewKemendo 5mo ago

Japanese auto workers have been unionized since the 60s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automobile_Workers%27_Unions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automob... In fact part of the SCAP mandates after World War II two during the MacArthur occupation was specifically to form powerful unions in Japan

amazingamazing 5mo ago
Interesting - but seems like Toyota in particular had their cars produced by non unionized group producing workers at least for some period: https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-toyota-plant-launch-campaign-to-join-the-uaw/ https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-t... Seems hard to compare since there is no comparison in Japan that is not unionized But given that China is now winning my original point stands
- AndrewKemendo 5mo ago
  Hey as long as you can find a reason you are right, that’s really what all life is about right?
  - amazingamazing 5mo ago
    Huh? Are you projecting something here?
    - evdubs 5mo ago
      Is it so difficult to say, "You're right. I'm wrong. There are actually unions for autoworkers in both China and Japan." ?
- ranguna 5mo ago
  Your point turned from "here are some examples" to "here's a sample of one". And that "one" is so different, society wise, from all the other ones that I'm not sure is useful here other that "if you live in a society like this that's just starting to massively produce world wide in this sector other than a brand or two they were doing before, then maybe there can be no union workers compared to the other companies that have been producing world wide for decades across multiple models and brands"

afavour 5mo ago

Correlation != causation. There are a ton of differences between the US car industry and those in other countries, unionization is just one factor. As a counter anecdote I’d point to Boeing’s non-union facilities, which have produced notably less reliable airplanes than their union locations ever did.

amazingamazing 5mo ago
Aren’t most boeing made by unionized workers? If by both that seems like a good comparison to make
- dcrazy 5mo ago
  Boeing actually offers a fascinating direct comparison. 787 Max has historically been assembled in two locations: unionized Renton, WA and non-union Charleston, SC. The Charleston planes were notorious for needing rework at Renton before they were airworthy. But the conclusion is muddied by the fact that Boeing has been making planes in the Seattle area for a century, so the talent pool is larger and more qualified than those they could find in or persuade to move to Charleston. Also, the whole Charleston move was one of many drastic cost-cutting efforts, including the spinoff of Spirit Aerospace that ultimately led to the door blowout on the Alaska Air MAX 9.

simonjgreen 5mo ago

The unionised Openreach in UK who are really the de facto layer 1 network provider telco build infrastructure to a staggeringly higher quality than most of the move fast startup alternatives. Aviation unions force very high standards and represent a lot of the developments in safety and procedures. Nuclear power is heavily unionised, resulting in a very stable and highly qualified workforce. Unions in film and tv have done great work defending artists rights and protecting actors, writers, crew, and others from predatory behaviour by studios. Fire fighter unions stand against unsafe demands and protect the crews in ways the individuals can’t, resulting in meaningful change. (I’m aware of UK but projecting and assuming this applies internationally) I could go on…

amazingamazing 5mo ago
I see the benefit of a union for the workers, but your examples seem strange. They do not illustrate that a union somehow results in a better product. If that were self evident how come there has never been a company that started with employees unionized? To get this supposed benefit
- AndrewKemendo 5mo ago
  They’re called cooperatives Mondragon is a extremely large well structured cooperative that did exactly this and is a hallmark of success for anarchist cooperatives worldwide
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
  - bit-anarchist 5mo ago
    It's a bit reversed, labor unions are cooperatives, not the other way around, as cooperatives are more flexible in arrangement than unions. Don't disagree with the rest of the comment though. EDIT: also, I wouldn't consider coops an anarchist victory over traditional private companies anymore than democracy over monarchy. The corporation > worker hierarchy is still there, even with the different share distribution. It's a good demonstration of an alternative and underappreciated corporate structure, tho.

evdubs 5mo ago

> What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better? Here's a layup: art. Remember the writer's union strike in 2007-2008? All of the shows whose writers were on strike that still went on were terrible. Edit: also, the purpose of a union is not to "produce something better". The purpose of a union is to protect workers' rights. They generally serve their purpose very well.

paddim8 5mo ago

Volvo workers in Sweden are unionised

VanTheBrand 5mo ago

But Japanese autoworkers are unionized and have been for a very long time? So there is an example of a unionized group producing a great product!

dcrazy 5mo ago
I’d be hesitant to directly draw broad generalizations about unions across countries. Labor practices and historical context are very different, and the U.A.W. is a singular creature.

humoctopus 5mo ago

most japanese auto workers are unionized, though unions work a little differently there.

insane_dreamer 5mo ago

> japanese and chinese which are not unionized might want to check your facts before posting

thrance 5mo ago

American manufacturers suck because of rampant financialization, not unions. They have prioritized the needs shareholders over those of consumers for a while now. Your hatred of workers striving for better working conditions is disturbing. Maybe there are more important things in life than conspicuous consumption and filling one's home with cheap garbage?