5 ms·

>Prompts like "move the code relating to SQL query analysis into a new file", "look for opportunities to use pytest parametrize to remove duplication in that te

by thfuran 5mo ago

>Prompts like "move the code relating to SQL query analysis into a new file", "look for opportunities to use pytest parametrize to remove duplication in that test", "rename method X to Y". There’s a lot of overlap there with the sorts of things traditional automated refactoring tools can do approximately instantly, locally, and for free.

mattacular 5mo ago
What are some traditional automated refactoring tools that can do stuff like those tasks from the example?
- iLoveOncall 5mo ago
  Literally any IDE or decent text editor?
- foobarbecue 5mo ago
  VSCode "rename symbol" is a basic example. Jetbrains products have way more and it's pretty great: https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code....
- swatcoder 5mo ago
  ??? Mature workflows for those kinds of tasks have been mostly ubiquitous across professional-grade engineering tools like those from JetBrains or Visual Studio itself for longee than many people here have even been working in the trade. It's clearly not the case for simonw, but much of what many people task AI tools to do foe them are only a novelty for the "VS Code"-type users who stubbornly refused to explore more professional-grade paid tools in the past. Yet for many tasks, those mature paid tools provided reliable and efficient features that make the AI approach look like an expensive, slow, and dangerously nondeterministic regression.
  - simonw 5mo ago
    Oh I'd definitely classify myself as a "'VS Code'-type users who stubbornly refused to explore more professional-grade paid tools in the past." I've never liked the larger IDEs - VS Code only won me over because it was indistinguishable from a lighter text editor at first, and the IDE tools then emerged slowly as I used it.
  - duggan 5mo ago
    I used JetBrains IDEs for years. The refactoring tooling was fancy find-replace as far as I recall? Pretty cool in 2015, though.
    - jraph 5mo ago
      It goes deeper than this, you have features like rename function / change method signature that will update your whole code base and even suggest applying such changes to related(-looking) functions.
- hack1312 5mo ago
  Eclipse IDE since like 2001
- rendaw 5mo ago
  https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code.html#refactoring_settings https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code.... This has a list, but some of them that I've used extensively: - Rename anything, can also do smart renames that apply patterns, deal with capitalization differences, pluralization, etc - Move function, constant to a different file - Change function signature, including adding, removing, reordering, and renaming arguments - Turn a chunk of code into a constant, variable, or function, including replacing other similar patterns or calculations with the new constant/variable/function - Inline any of the above. - Replace a class with an interface, have the class implement the interface... same with field accesses - Move functions up/down the type hierarchy I'm sure there's others. This has all been there for at least a decade.
cautiouscat 5mo ago
Yeah I do find myself leaning back into those tools. For awhile I’d just prompt to rename something. But when it’s my own tokens I’m paying for, I prefer the fast and free option :)
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
keybored 5mo ago
You just went too far. Go back to the subscription.
ryandrake 5mo ago
Yea, when I read about people using AI with prompts like that, my first thought is, "Wow, that's like copy/paste, but instead of Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V, it's round-tripping to a server and using GPUs to do it." What's next? "Claude, rename the function doFoo() to performBar()"?
- simonw 5mo ago
  Here's the loop for a successful small refactor (anything beyond a rename that could be handled entirely by an IDE): 1. Find the code you want to change 2. Run the tests to confirm that test coverage is good for the starting point 3. Track down everywhere else that might call or interact with that code 4. Update the tests (red/green TDD) 5. Alter the code 6. Update the things that call the code 7. Run the tests again 8. Apply linters/formatters 9. Address any feedback from linters 10. Check to see if any documentation needs updating and do that 11. Land a commit with a descriptive commit message I can get all of that done with a coding agent with a single sentence prompt - especially if it's already in a session where it knows that I do "red/green TDD". ... and then I can work on something else while the agent is churning through those steps.
  - ryandrake 5mo ago
    My point is that all these steps can be done very quickly by even a junior developer who knows emacs or their IDE, in a codebase with existing lint/format/test automation, without even taking their hands off the keyboard. You're already in your IDE, you can probably do it just as fast there. I don't see the cost/benefit of spending tokens and hitting a server for this kind of work. I guess the difference may be in people's mode of AI working: Do you primarily develop in your IDE or a bunch of terminals running vim, and occasionally fire up claude to do more complex things? Or do you primarily develop in a long-lasting claude terminal, and occasionally tab over to the IDE to watch/codereview? In other words: What dev tool is on your primary monitor and what's on your secondary monitor? It's getting hard for developers in one camp to discuss coding and see eye-to-eye with developers from the other camp.
    - simonw 5mo ago
simonw 5mo ago
Sure, and sometimes the coding agent will even use one of those refactoring tools on my behalf. Getting them to run ast-grep is really fun, especially when it saves me from having to memorize that syntax myself.
NooneAtAll3 5mo ago
> traditional automated refactoring tools any recommendations?
- thfuran 5mo ago
  Whatever the most popular IDE is for any given language, probably.
quietbritishjim 5mo ago
Traditional automated refactoring tools cannot read multiple functions and, in one go, determine what subsets of all of those functions relate philosphically to the SQL queries (not just the actual queries themselves) and pull those out into a new coherent interface in a new file.
sharts 5mo ago
which tools?

by thfuran 5mo ago

mattacular 5mo ago

What are some traditional automated refactoring tools that can do stuff like those tasks from the example?

iLoveOncall 5mo ago
Literally any IDE or decent text editor?
foobarbecue 5mo ago
VSCode "rename symbol" is a basic example. Jetbrains products have way more and it's pretty great: https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code....
swatcoder 5mo ago
??? Mature workflows for those kinds of tasks have been mostly ubiquitous across professional-grade engineering tools like those from JetBrains or Visual Studio itself for longee than many people here have even been working in the trade. It's clearly not the case for simonw, but much of what many people task AI tools to do foe them are only a novelty for the "VS Code"-type users who stubbornly refused to explore more professional-grade paid tools in the past. Yet for many tasks, those mature paid tools provided reliable and efficient features that make the AI approach look like an expensive, slow, and dangerously nondeterministic regression.
- simonw 5mo ago
  Oh I'd definitely classify myself as a "'VS Code'-type users who stubbornly refused to explore more professional-grade paid tools in the past." I've never liked the larger IDEs - VS Code only won me over because it was indistinguishable from a lighter text editor at first, and the IDE tools then emerged slowly as I used it.
- duggan 5mo ago
  I used JetBrains IDEs for years. The refactoring tooling was fancy find-replace as far as I recall? Pretty cool in 2015, though.
  - jraph 5mo ago
    It goes deeper than this, you have features like rename function / change method signature that will update your whole code base and even suggest applying such changes to related(-looking) functions.
hack1312 5mo ago
Eclipse IDE since like 2001
rendaw 5mo ago
https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code.html#refactoring_settings https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/refactoring-source-code.... This has a list, but some of them that I've used extensively: - Rename anything, can also do smart renames that apply patterns, deal with capitalization differences, pluralization, etc - Move function, constant to a different file - Change function signature, including adding, removing, reordering, and renaming arguments - Turn a chunk of code into a constant, variable, or function, including replacing other similar patterns or calculations with the new constant/variable/function - Inline any of the above. - Replace a class with an interface, have the class implement the interface... same with field accesses - Move functions up/down the type hierarchy I'm sure there's others. This has all been there for at least a decade.

cautiouscat 5mo ago

Yeah I do find myself leaning back into those tools. For awhile I’d just prompt to rename something. But when it’s my own tokens I’m paying for, I prefer the fast and free option :)

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

keybored 5mo ago

You just went too far. Go back to the subscription.

ryandrake 5mo ago

Yea, when I read about people using AI with prompts like that, my first thought is, "Wow, that's like copy/paste, but instead of Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V, it's round-tripping to a server and using GPUs to do it." What's next? "Claude, rename the function doFoo() to performBar()"?

simonw 5mo ago
Here's the loop for a successful small refactor (anything beyond a rename that could be handled entirely by an IDE): 1. Find the code you want to change 2. Run the tests to confirm that test coverage is good for the starting point 3. Track down everywhere else that might call or interact with that code 4. Update the tests (red/green TDD) 5. Alter the code 6. Update the things that call the code 7. Run the tests again 8. Apply linters/formatters 9. Address any feedback from linters 10. Check to see if any documentation needs updating and do that 11. Land a commit with a descriptive commit message I can get all of that done with a coding agent with a single sentence prompt - especially if it's already in a session where it knows that I do "red/green TDD". ... and then I can work on something else while the agent is churning through those steps.
- ryandrake 5mo ago
  My point is that all these steps can be done very quickly by even a junior developer who knows emacs or their IDE, in a codebase with existing lint/format/test automation, without even taking their hands off the keyboard. You're already in your IDE, you can probably do it just as fast there. I don't see the cost/benefit of spending tokens and hitting a server for this kind of work. I guess the difference may be in people's mode of AI working: Do you primarily develop in your IDE or a bunch of terminals running vim, and occasionally fire up claude to do more complex things? Or do you primarily develop in a long-lasting claude terminal, and occasionally tab over to the IDE to watch/codereview? In other words: What dev tool is on your primary monitor and what's on your secondary monitor? It's getting hard for developers in one camp to discuss coding and see eye-to-eye with developers from the other camp.
  - simonw 5mo ago

simonw 5mo ago

Sure, and sometimes the coding agent will even use one of those refactoring tools on my behalf. Getting them to run ast-grep is really fun, especially when it saves me from having to memorize that syntax myself.

NooneAtAll3 5mo ago

> traditional automated refactoring tools any recommendations?

thfuran 5mo ago
Whatever the most popular IDE is for any given language, probably.

quietbritishjim 5mo ago

Traditional automated refactoring tools cannot read multiple functions and, in one go, determine what subsets of all of those functions relate philosphically to the SQL queries (not just the actual queries themselves) and pull those out into a new coherent interface in a new file.

sharts 5mo ago

which tools?