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"The surge in math deficiencies after dropping the SAT highlights a systemic issue: grade inflation. Without a standardized baseline like the SAT/ACT, a 4.0 GPA
by StateflowsLabs 5mo ago
"The surge in math deficiencies after dropping the SAT highlights a systemic issue: grade inflation. Without a standardized baseline like the SAT/ACT, a 4.0 GPA from a high school with relaxed standards looks identical to a 4.0 from a highly rigorous one.
Paradoxically, removing test requirements harms underprivileged students the most. Preparing for the SAT requires a book and an internet connection. In contrast, building a competitive profile based entirely on expensive extracurriculars, sports, and elite summer camps is far more wealth-dependent. Standardized testing isn't perfect, but it's often the only objective equalizer we have."
- ceejayoz 5mo ago> Preparing for the SAT requires a book and an internet connection. Sports frequently just requires a ball or a place to run. In both scenarios, you can still purchase better equipment/training. There are very expensive, effective SAT prep options out there for the wealthy.
- valleyer 5mo agoYour analogy works against you, given that tons of professional athletes come from poverty.
- BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago> tons of professional athletes come from poverty Is that actually the case?
- ptek 5mo agoDepends on the sport. I don’t think the Olympic equestrian competitors would be dirt poor.
- xhkkffbf 5mo agoRead up on Kobe Bryant or Bronny James.
- valleyer 5mo agoSure, those are some good counterexamples: both sons of professional athletes. And there are plenty of others. On the other hand, we have: Allen Iverson, Larry Bird, Shaquille O'Neal, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Vick, Bo Jackson, Jackie Robinson, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Fernando Valenzuela, Albert Pujols, Jim Thorpe, ... Oh, and LeBron James himself! So my view is that people of both rich and poor upbringings have a good chance in the sports world these days, at least for those sports where the necessary gear is relatively cheap.
- nradov 5mo agoTimes have changed. Due to the rise of expensive youth travel club sports leagues I suspect we will see fewer poor children turn professional. There will always be a few outliers but if you don't have access to top coaching and extra competitive playing time prior to college then you're really at a disadvantage.
- BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago> On the other hand Perhaps I should have instead said "is that still happening at meaningful rates". LeBron James is an interesting example. Per wiki: > Realizing that her son would be better off in a more stable family environment, Gloria allowed him to move in with the family of Frank Walker, a local youth football coach who introduced James to basketball when he was nine years old. and then later he went to a fancy private high school (whose wikipedia page has many notable alumni, all athletes). So while "from poverty" may be technically accurate, I don't know if I'd count it given all his opportunities later in childhood.
- ceejayoz 5mo agoProfessional athletes are like people who get 1600s on the SAT; a bit of an outlier.
- Aarostotle 5mo agoThat's exactly the point. Top schools are looking for outlier intellectual talent, but the egalitarian approach (high school grade inflation plus weakening of standardized testing) smooths the differences and makes it harder for them to admit the right people. The visible result has been the weakening of these institutions. Do also observe that this is recursive — as these institutions have lowered their standards over decades, the people who go through them and end up leading them are weaker, too.
- ceejayoz 5mo ago> Top schools are looking for outlier intellectual talent… Eh, somewhat. They want some of those outliers hobnobbing with the legacies.
- t0mpr1c3 5mo agoWe're talking about the California state education system here. They do not have the option to restrict the provision of their services to a tiny elite. The concerns of "top schools" absorbs altogether too much oxygen.
- toast0 5mo agoIMHO, California state higher education is setup to be tiered. UC > CSU > Community Colleges. If UC is getting a lot of STEM students that need remedial math, I think something has gone wrong. Those students might be better served by getting their math needs met at a community college and transfering to UC later. For one, why pay UC prices for remedial math? For two, community college has a lot more sections of remedial math and more experience teaching it. If you're in a degree that doesn't need much math, taking remedial math at UC is probably fine; but all the STEM degrees want at least the full calculus series (afaik). Remedial math for STEM students at CSU is probably in the middle. You still don't really want a lot of students in that group, when they could be better served at community college ... but CSU should also be more prepared for it.
- rixed 5mo agoAccording to IA this is mostly a myth though.
- winterbourne 5mo agoAgreed. Professional sports are the closest institution that society has to a meritocracy. Highly competitive, public, obsessively measured and analyzed. A tenth of a second faster sprint time might be more valuable than even a top-tier socioeconomic background.
- criddell 5mo agoMy kids were able to take some SAT test prep course through their school (partially funded by the PTA) and it helped a lot. They wrote a bunch of practice exams and each time their scores went up. Also, test taking itself is a skill and the more you practice it the better you get at it. If you’ve written the SAT 15 times over the past 2 years, then the 16th time won’t be as stressful and you will know strategies that work and the questions will be familiar. If you are in a school that doesn’t have a well funded PTA, you are at a disadvantage.
- jeffbee 5mo agoYou can, as of about a year ago, take official SAT practice exams for free in Google Gemini.
- ceejayoz 5mo agoSAT prep is much more than just taking practice exams.
- jeffbee 5mo agoThe person to whom I responded seemed to imply that it consists chiefly or entirely of taking practice exams. I merely wish to point out that if you want your kid to take SAT practice exams every month you can do it for free at home.
- triceratops 5mo agoWhatever gates you put up, the wealthy can fire cannons of cash at them. You just have to pick the ones least vulnerable to cash barrages. What is the marginal gain of expensive SAT prep? Versus just doing hundreds of mock tests out of some prep book, like SWEs grinding LeetCode?
- duped 5mo agoIt feels like the problem are the SAT prep courses' existence then
- adrr 5mo agoSports is the most expensive way to get into college. Tennis is close to $1 million to get your kid into an Ivy league through tennis. Malcom Gladwell wrote about sports and colleges in his book "revenge of the tipping point". Sports is used by the wealthy to get their less academically inclined children in to top schools and some school are expanding it.
- nradov 5mo agoThat's not the reality for most youth sports anymore. It's gotten much more competitive. Participating in school sports isn't enough. They generally can't develop the level of skill necessary to gain advantage in college admissions without paying a lot to participate in travel club teams and for private coaching. And I'm not talking just about NCAA recruited athletic scholarships but even for the sort of regular extracurricular sports activities that might give someone an advantage in college admissions.
- chasd00 5mo agoA friend of mine brought his girl up in club soccer, he was starting to travel to different states for tournaments when she was about 8 years old. It was insanely expensive. The only thing i can think of crazier than club soccer is maybe club cheerleading. Youth sports is completely bonkers if you've never been exposed to it.
- nyeah 5mo agoI don't think it's paradoxical at all. This was the original strength of the SAT system.
- eunos 5mo agoAnd SAT as high school math exam itself I think is way too easy. They should design another test which can clearly distinguish top 1% or even 0.1%.from others
- raincole 5mo agoThere are already such tests. They're called International ___ Olympiad.
- linguae 5mo agoWhen I was in high school in California more than 20 years ago, SAT math alone was insufficient for admissions to STEM programs at mid-ranked and top-ranked universities. I was required to take the SAT Math IIC subject test, which went up to pre-calculus. We were also strongly encouraged to take calculus in high school. There are two AP Calculus exams: AB (which covers the first semester of university calculus) and BC (which covers the first two semesters).
- jobs_throwaway 5mo agoYes, the scores at the top are way too bunched. A perfect score should indicate generational genius, not the 100th smartest kid your year in California.
- nradov 5mo agoThat's not a real problem for UC admissions. They accept thousands of students every year. Anyone who scores near perfect (within the margin of error) should be admitted to at least one UC campus. If that's not happening then the problem is with the admissions criteria, not with the SAT.
- jobs_throwaway 5mo ago> Anyone who scores near perfect (within the margin of error) should be admitted to at least one UC campus You really don't see a problem with that? Our best students should not be "admitted to at least one UC campus". They should have their pick of the UCs and should be getting generous scholarships to entice them. There is absolutely loads of bunching near the top the distribution which makes it impossible for actually-top students to differentiate themselves.
- lokar 5mo agoThe problem is as never the tests. It was pretending that the difference between a 600 and 625 (or whatever) really predicted anything. It was the silly idea that with tests you could produce a fair ordering of students based on potential to succeed.
- jpadkins 5mo agowho uses SAT scores as "potential succeed"??
- lokar 5mo agoThe original argument for standardized tests was to pick based on how well you would do in university (vs who your parents know).
- raincole 5mo agoAny working system has to rely on some arbitrary rules. Drawing a line between students who scored 600 and 625 is still infinitely better than drawing it based on the decision-makers' moods.
- lokar 5mo agoOr, treat 600-625 as a tie, and use a lottery.
- chaostheory 5mo agoAs imperfect standardized tests are, they are still more fair and less biased than using arbitrary judgement on extra curriculars
- lokar 5mo agoBucket to the observed predictive power of the score, resolve ties with a lottery .
- 5mo ago
- CalRobert 5mo agoI wasn't underprivileged but I did go to a terrible evangelical high school that had no honors or AP classes (AP bio at a place teaching creationism would've been something else...) and I think I only got in to a decent college on the strength of my SAT and ACT scores. My grades were OK (except in bio, where I refused to acknowledge young Earth creationism) but not amazing.
- RealityVoid 5mo ago> My grades were OK (except in bio, where I refused to acknowledge young Earth creationism) but not amazing. This is... Wild.
- smcg 5mo agoIt's very common in US private schools.
- tclancy 5mo agoUh, it's been a while since I've been inside one, but I would guess it's very common in a certain strain of US private schools, not as a rule.
- cm2012 5mo agoNo it is not lol. Incredibly rare
- nyeah 5mo agoI think this depends a lot on how you select the set of private schools you're looking at.
- Henchman21 5mo agoPlease provide a reference to this.
- CalRobert 5mo agoThe funny thing is the Adventists seem to produce good hospitals but are still creationists. I guess it’s not a big deal how we got here if you just want to do medicine.
- happytoexplain 5mo agoI can't read the article - do they explain why they think this is a "paradox"?
- akramachamarei 5mo agoPersonally, I don't think they actually believe it's paradoxical, I think the authors are just trying to be polite to those who criticize standardized testing with identity politics. Politeness can aid in persuasion, so I don't blame them.
- kayson 5mo agoThis doesn't exactly answer your question, but MIT added test scores back recently and wrote a blog post explaining why: https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/we-are-reinstating-our-sat-act-requirement-for-future-admissions-cycles/ https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/we-are-reinstating-our... I think the "paradox" is that you'd expect disadvantaged students to perform worse on standardized testing.
- delecti 5mo agoExpectation: removing standardized tests will give more opportunity to students who historically tend to do worse on those tests, like poor kids. Reality: removing standardized tests means that universities have to put more weight on the rest of the college application, such as extracurricular activities which are often expensive and thus disadvantage poor kids. Calling it a "paradox" is maybe a little hyperbolic, but basically it did the opposite of what they expected.
- happytoexplain 5mo agoBut this is relative, right? We're talking about SATs vs just relying on grades. Do poor kids do worse on SATs relative to how they do in their class grades, as compared to other kids? I kind of just figured poor kids do worse overall.
- Jensson 5mo agoIts easier to get good grades in poor schools since regardless how you grade your teachers grade you against your peers, and poor schools have worse peers. So given same knowledge poor students have better grades, so their grades will be relatively better than their SATs. At least in public schools were you don't have an incentive to give everyone an A, maybe private schools are different.
- fred_is_fred 5mo agoI've been wondering with all the data that's available now couldn't admissions look at a 4.0 from HS A vs a 4.0 at HS B and then compare those to actual grades on the campus once students were in class? Assuming HS A has lower standards, they should be able to tell that a 4.0 isnt as meaningful as a 4.0 from HS B. Seems like a straightforward exercise.
- jaco6 5mo ago[dead]