4 ms·

> Do we need to actually go to war with Russia? Yes. That's what everyone signed up to [0] when Ukraine gave up its Soviet-era nukes. [0] https://en.wikipedia

> Do we need to actually go to war with Russia? Yes. That's what everyone signed up to [0] when Ukraine gave up its Soviet-era nukes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

mikestorrent 5mo ago
Great, more dead boys for nothing. As a Canadian, I think we've sacrificed enough generations for European brother wars. Given retrospect, wouldn't a land deal have been better than half a million dead? Wouldn't walking away from your house, maybe with a reparations package, be better than it being blown up by drones and your family killed? I don't think we need to go to war. We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman.
- marcus_holmes 5mo ago
  Agree completely. But part of that would be getting Russia to stop attempting to become a cold-war boogeyman, and stop behaving like a cold-war boogeyman. Russia also signed that treaty, and is also blatantly breaking it.
  - selivanovp 5mo ago
    [flagged]
    - lostlogin 5mo ago
      If the US did interfere, that’s poor. What do you think of Russian involvement in Ukrainian elections?
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
    - mcdonje 5mo ago
      Seems like you're claiming Ukraine's 2014 "Revolution of Dignity" and subsequent democratic elections were something the USA did. That's a controversial claim, and one that ignores the recorded actions and sentiments of the Ukrainian people. It's also unrealistic and gives the US too much credit. The US does have their hands in pies across the globe, but that was a large scale uprising of Ukrainian people. No outside force can make something like that happen if the people aren't already aligned. The simpler explanation is the Ukrainian people wanted to be closer to the EU, and didn't like Yanukovych's authoritarian tendencies. I wouldn't be surprised if some propaganda blamed it on the US, but it doesn't make sense. If the US wanted to do regime change and the public wasn't behind it, it would look very different. There are unfortunately many examples.
    - breve 5mo ago
      > a separator between Russia and NATO countries Why does Russia need a separator between itself and NATO countries? What do you think is going to happen without it?
    - chimprich 5mo ago
      > Russia's war against Ukraine has never been about getting more territory, That's completely counter to everything we know about Putin's mindset, and completely counter to all his actions so far. How would a war for territory look any different to what is occurring now? > when Ukraine has to be a sovereign and neutral state That's an oxymoron. Why does a sovereign democratic have to be neutral? A democratic state has the right to pursue whatever alliances it chooses.
- fooster 5mo ago
  Appeasement does not work. It emboldens fascist dictators.
- moi2388 5mo ago
  Sure! You’re more than welcome to give up Canada to Russia to protect the people in Ukraine. No? Don’t want to trade land suddenly?
- MrDresden 5mo ago
  > "We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman." Are you even aware of what has been going on in Ukraine for the last 4 years, and in Crimea for the last 12?
  - selivanovp 5mo ago
    [flagged]
    - oneshtein 5mo ago
      Crimea lived happily before Russians and will live hapilly after Russians. Russians will not.
- noir_lord 5mo ago
  Go read the article on the Bucha massacre and then the see also. Sometimes the only way to deal with the boogeyman is to accept they are the boogeyman because of their pattern of behaviour.
- Lio 5mo ago
  Land deal? Russia has never asked for a land deal. They started the war and their goal has always been the total destruction of Ukraine and the enslavement of the people. Where they’ve pulled back from occupied areas they’ve mass civilian graves and bodies with signs of torture.
  - selivanovp 5mo ago
    Stop spreading propaganda. - Ukrainians are the second largest ethnicity in Russia. - The majority of people living on a currently contested territories of Ukraine used to be USSR citizens. - Russia got the majority of Ukrainian refugees since the start of a war if we count per country. - Pretty much all the former Ukraine citizens got Russian passports and a citizens of Russia now. - And yes, if Ukraine is using cities as fortresses and do not evacuate civilians from there, high chances are that after weeks and months long battles those civilians end up in graves with nasty wounds on their bodies.
    - krige 5mo ago
      > - Ukrainians are the second largest ethnicity in Russia. No. Never was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia > - Russia got the majority of Ukrainian refugees since the start of a war if we count per country. No. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refuge... You might be confusing abductees with refugees. > - The majority of people living on a currently contested territories of Ukraine used to be USSR citizens. The majority of people living on contested territories of United States in 1775 used to be British citizens. So? > - And yes, if Ukraine is using cities as fortresses and do not evacuate civilians from there, high chances are that after weeks and months long battles those civilians end up in graves with nasty wounds on their bodies. Absolutely vile propaganda.
      - adrian_b 5mo ago
        I agree with what you say, but "Never was" is contradicted by your Wikipedia link, which shows Ukrainians in the second position at the 1926 census, being overtaken by Tatars in the more recent censuses. However, it is not said which is the territory for the 1926 census data, it may have included a part of the present territory of Ukraine, because the borders of present Ukraine are very different from the borders of Ukraine after WWI. Such census data about Russia and the Soviet Union are hard to interpret without precise knowledge of the corresponding territories, because the fluctuations in numbers may be unrelated to natural growth, but determined by administrative reorganizations or forced deportations.
- krige 5mo ago
  > We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman. We tried that in the 90s. Didn't work. Made things worse, really.
- chimprich 5mo ago
  > Wouldn't walking away from your house, maybe with a reparations package, be better than it being blown up by drones and your family killed? Please explain your analogy. Everyone should give up their property whenever they are threatened? For free, or whatever the aggressor chooses to give them? > I don't think we need to go to war. We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman. What does that mean? How would you deal with them with humanity? Just give up your country when they invade?
selivanovp 5mo ago
[flagged]
0xDEAFBEAD 5mo ago
If you read the memorandum text, at most the US promised to go to the UN security council if Ukraine's territorial integrity was threatened. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P... There is a lot of misinformation floating around the internet about this memorandum. Furthermore, even Wikipedia states: "The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty, and it does not confer any new legal obligations for signatory states. It was written in a way to avoid an impression of legal obligation."
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- oneshtein 5mo ago
  Your words are not proven in court.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 5mo ago
    Where in the memorandum does it say the US is obligated to defend Ukraine? Please give me a direct quote. Otherwise this is a nonsense objection. "You have to give me $1 million. You haven't proven otherwise in court!" What is the actual evidence for your position?
  - ben_w 5mo ago
    What court would care to hear it?

mikestorrent 5mo ago

Great, more dead boys for nothing. As a Canadian, I think we've sacrificed enough generations for European brother wars. Given retrospect, wouldn't a land deal have been better than half a million dead? Wouldn't walking away from your house, maybe with a reparations package, be better than it being blown up by drones and your family killed? I don't think we need to go to war. We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman.

marcus_holmes 5mo ago
Agree completely. But part of that would be getting Russia to stop attempting to become a cold-war boogeyman, and stop behaving like a cold-war boogeyman. Russia also signed that treaty, and is also blatantly breaking it.
- selivanovp 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - lostlogin 5mo ago
    If the US did interfere, that’s poor. What do you think of Russian involvement in Ukrainian elections?
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
  - mcdonje 5mo ago
    Seems like you're claiming Ukraine's 2014 "Revolution of Dignity" and subsequent democratic elections were something the USA did. That's a controversial claim, and one that ignores the recorded actions and sentiments of the Ukrainian people. It's also unrealistic and gives the US too much credit. The US does have their hands in pies across the globe, but that was a large scale uprising of Ukrainian people. No outside force can make something like that happen if the people aren't already aligned. The simpler explanation is the Ukrainian people wanted to be closer to the EU, and didn't like Yanukovych's authoritarian tendencies. I wouldn't be surprised if some propaganda blamed it on the US, but it doesn't make sense. If the US wanted to do regime change and the public wasn't behind it, it would look very different. There are unfortunately many examples.
  - breve 5mo ago
    > a separator between Russia and NATO countries Why does Russia need a separator between itself and NATO countries? What do you think is going to happen without it?
  - chimprich 5mo ago
    > Russia's war against Ukraine has never been about getting more territory, That's completely counter to everything we know about Putin's mindset, and completely counter to all his actions so far. How would a war for territory look any different to what is occurring now? > when Ukraine has to be a sovereign and neutral state That's an oxymoron. Why does a sovereign democratic have to be neutral? A democratic state has the right to pursue whatever alliances it chooses.
fooster 5mo ago
Appeasement does not work. It emboldens fascist dictators.
moi2388 5mo ago
Sure! You’re more than welcome to give up Canada to Russia to protect the people in Ukraine. No? Don’t want to trade land suddenly?
MrDresden 5mo ago
> "We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman." Are you even aware of what has been going on in Ukraine for the last 4 years, and in Crimea for the last 12?
- selivanovp 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - oneshtein 5mo ago
    Crimea lived happily before Russians and will live hapilly after Russians. Russians will not.
noir_lord 5mo ago
Go read the article on the Bucha massacre and then the see also. Sometimes the only way to deal with the boogeyman is to accept they are the boogeyman because of their pattern of behaviour.
Lio 5mo ago
Land deal? Russia has never asked for a land deal. They started the war and their goal has always been the total destruction of Ukraine and the enslavement of the people. Where they’ve pulled back from occupied areas they’ve mass civilian graves and bodies with signs of torture.
- selivanovp 5mo ago
  Stop spreading propaganda. - Ukrainians are the second largest ethnicity in Russia. - The majority of people living on a currently contested territories of Ukraine used to be USSR citizens. - Russia got the majority of Ukrainian refugees since the start of a war if we count per country. - Pretty much all the former Ukraine citizens got Russian passports and a citizens of Russia now. - And yes, if Ukraine is using cities as fortresses and do not evacuate civilians from there, high chances are that after weeks and months long battles those civilians end up in graves with nasty wounds on their bodies.
  - krige 5mo ago
    > - Ukrainians are the second largest ethnicity in Russia. No. Never was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia > - Russia got the majority of Ukrainian refugees since the start of a war if we count per country. No. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refuge... You might be confusing abductees with refugees. > - The majority of people living on a currently contested territories of Ukraine used to be USSR citizens. The majority of people living on contested territories of United States in 1775 used to be British citizens. So? > - And yes, if Ukraine is using cities as fortresses and do not evacuate civilians from there, high chances are that after weeks and months long battles those civilians end up in graves with nasty wounds on their bodies. Absolutely vile propaganda.
    - adrian_b 5mo ago
      I agree with what you say, but "Never was" is contradicted by your Wikipedia link, which shows Ukrainians in the second position at the 1926 census, being overtaken by Tatars in the more recent censuses. However, it is not said which is the territory for the 1926 census data, it may have included a part of the present territory of Ukraine, because the borders of present Ukraine are very different from the borders of Ukraine after WWI. Such census data about Russia and the Soviet Union are hard to interpret without precise knowledge of the corresponding territories, because the fluctuations in numbers may be unrelated to natural growth, but determined by administrative reorganizations or forced deportations.
krige 5mo ago
> We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman. We tried that in the 90s. Didn't work. Made things worse, really.
chimprich 5mo ago
> Wouldn't walking away from your house, maybe with a reparations package, be better than it being blown up by drones and your family killed? Please explain your analogy. Everyone should give up their property whenever they are threatened? For free, or whatever the aggressor chooses to give them? > I don't think we need to go to war. We need to find a way to deal with Russia with humanity instead of treating them like some boomer-era cold war bogeyman. What does that mean? How would you deal with them with humanity? Just give up your country when they invade?

selivanovp 5mo ago

[flagged]

0xDEAFBEAD 5mo ago

If you read the memorandum text, at most the US promised to go to the UN security council if Ukraine's territorial integrity was threatened. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P... There is a lot of misinformation floating around the internet about this memorandum. Furthermore, even Wikipedia states: "The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty, and it does not confer any new legal obligations for signatory states. It was written in a way to avoid an impression of legal obligation."

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
oneshtein 5mo ago
Your words are not proven in court.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 5mo ago
  Where in the memorandum does it say the US is obligated to defend Ukraine? Please give me a direct quote. Otherwise this is a nonsense objection. "You have to give me $1 million. You haven't proven otherwise in court!" What is the actual evidence for your position?
- ben_w 5mo ago
  What court would care to hear it?