3 ms·

I mean, the wastewater issues can be real in some environments. It's not a completely insane idea and like all things can be reasonably discussed and mitigated

by ajross 5mo ago

I mean, the wastewater issues can be real in some environments. It's not a completely insane idea and like all things can be reasonably discussed and mitigated. It's not like these things have the ecological impact of steel foundries or fruit orchards, but they're not parks either. I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though. Freakouts about AI (which ultimately is what this is) aren't "rational" but they're eminently "reasonable". This isn't like electrification or aviation or the internet or whatnot (technologies that had clear, tangible benefits that everyone could see and understand), there is real discussion happening, by real experts, about essentially all non-physical labor being replaced! And... what do regular folks get from that? Talking to robots doesn't look like a quality of life improvement! Basically we in the upper stands here are having a "Let Them Eat Cake" moment, and we should stop. Things are getting ugly.

tptacek 5mo ago
I don't see it that way at all, but then I'm a housing activist, and I've seen fiercer opposition to a 4-story apartment building than to some of these data centers. People just like opposing development. It's very satisfying! When I see a protest over a golf course opening, I'll take data center water use concerns seriously. The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built. People are being hypnotized by concentrated minority interests in specific spots in the country. The only big picture thing about it is the left-populist sideshow it's created.
- no-name-here 5mo ago
  > The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built. That seems very untrue - multiple areas have already banned data centers, and senators like Bernie Sanders have proposed stopping data centers nationwide. This is just the next phase of NIMBY-ism. Alternatively, source that the "data centers the industry wants are all going to get built"? > I've seen fiercer opposition to a 4-story apartment building than to some of these data centers. I'm guessing you're referring to rather cherry-picked data? I've seen data center opposition making even the national news, but I don't recall any '4-story apartment buildings' opposition doing so? And senators like Bernie Sanders are proposing halting data centers nationwide - are there any similar proposals to similarly outlaw such housing construction nationwide? > People just like opposing development.… When I see a protest over a golf course opening, I'll take data center water use concerns seriously. Agreed.
  - taybin 5mo ago
    Bernie Sanders proposes a lot of things that are never implemented. I’m not sure his support is actually a useful signal of greater support.
    - bdangubic 5mo ago
      it is (unfortunately) quite the opposite, if you see what he supports there is a high likelyhood of that not happening.
  - tptacek 5mo ago
    Of course multiple areas have already banned data centers. So what? The United States is absolutely enormous. Data center buildout --- especially for AI training --- has a much easier problem than housing does. Housing needs to be built near centers of economic activity, which means that every marginal unit of housing is likely to be infill and has to pass muster with relatively dense neighborhoods of people who hate development. Data centers tend to be sited in underutilized industrial tracts. There are lots of those around the country. I feel like what's obviously happening here is that people have a rooting interest against AI, and highly-publicized pushes against "AI data centers" in specific areas are simply sparking joy for people.
    - no-name-here 5mo ago
      Is the argument that opposition to, and proposed bans of, data centers are only occurring on sites near dense population centers, as opposed to even covering incredibly low density sites? I'd say data center opposition goes beyond housing opposition as state-wide or even national bans have been proposed. Many people similarly have a 'rooting interest' against public housing, public transit, even new housing in general in their area, and similarly celebrate when housing, transit, etc. get stopped. <shrug>
      - tptacek 5mo ago
        That's exactly what I'm saying. This is an old story; it's just getting airplay because of the "AI" connection.
- cootsnuck 5mo ago
  > The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built. If that was the case then why are the majority of data center projects getting scrapped? https://gizmodo.com/data-center-project-cancellations-quadrupled-in-2025-as-locals-fight-back-2000709669 https://gizmodo.com/data-center-project-cancellations-quadru... Why are insiders saying they only expect about 10% of data center projects to ever be completed? Why is 2026 already shaping up to have less than half of planned data centers break ground on construction? Local community opposition is a big driver but so is permitting and infra procurement. https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/energy-power-supply/why-ai-data-center-projects-face-years-of-delays-after-approval https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/energy-power-supply/why-... All of this is inconvenient to big tech's "inevitability" narratives.
  - ojbyrne 5mo ago
    That Gizmodo article says none of the things you characterize it as saying. Except sorta - "Peter Freed, Meta’s former director of energy strategy, who spoke to Heatmap, expects only about 10% of the projects that are currently underway to ever be completed." Perhaps that's why he's a "former director" but that doesn't really qualify as an "insider."
    - cootsnuck 5mo ago
      Yea, my bad. "majority getting scrapped” was sloppy wording. More accurate to say would be that a big chunk of the AI data center pipeline looks delayed/speculative. 16GW is slated for 2026, but only 5GW is actually under construction. https://www.sightlineclimate.com/research/data-center-outlook https://www.sightlineclimate.com/research/data-center-outloo... I do think it's a bit ridiculous though to not consider someone a tech insider who was a director for a decade at one of the biggest tech companies in history...
- hunterpayne 5mo ago
  [flagged]
rcpt 5mo ago
> It's not a completely insane idea and like all things can be reasonably discussed Actually it's a completely insane idea that can't be reasonably discussed.
ronsor 5mo ago
> I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though. Freakouts about AI (which ultimately is what this is) aren't "rational" but they're eminently "reasonable". A lot of the "sneering" I see from everyone who isn't an investor or an executive is a consequence of resistance to outreach. It's very difficult to discuss subjects with people when many now interpret factual explanations as propaganda and reassurance as manipulation. By the way, plenty of people feared electricity a great deal (and it wasn't exactly implemented safely when it was new). In the 90s, many people also thought the Internet was a temporary fad, a mere novelty that would fade in some years.
- pesus 5mo ago
  Maybe the issue is the "reassurance" is identical to propaganda and manipulation. It definitely doesn't help that the companies having to "reassure" people have aligned themselves with so many others that have been pushing propaganda to manipulate others for some time now. Nor does it help that many of the same companies that need to "reassure" people are also actively doing the opposite - see the billboards bragging about not hiring humans, or CEOs bragging about how AI will replace the majority of people and leave them destitute. There's no reason for someone to trust any "reassurance" when there are so many signals indicating they shouldn't.
  - ToValueFunfetti 5mo ago
    Reassurance is identical to propaganda and manipulation insofar as all attempt to convey beliefs. Reassurance, here, should be apparently different in that it conveys true information. In the history of mankind, it has never been easier to discern between true and false information. If people want to throw up their hands and start believing whatever feels right, they are permitted to do so. Though they have a duty not to as citizens of a democracy, they have the right to actively pursue policies based on falsehoods. Let's not pretend it's a reasonable or respectable reaction to seeing billboards. If somebody does want to give up on research and working out the truth, please actually give up and say you don't know. Stop coming to the city council meetings and plastering "millions of gallons" on even the social medias where that's surprising.
ashdksnndck 5mo ago
> I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though. The industry is actually doing real work on water issues in response to these complaints. Big tech companies are funding projects that will allow them to replenish more water than their datacenters consume. This isn’t actually that hard of a goal for them to meet, because as we know, the amount of water we’re talking about isn’t much on a national scale. Regardless, this will mean companies making some positive change in the communities where they build datacenters. Anyway, all of this is a distraction compared to the real problem of carbon emissions. It confuses me that environmentalists are getting sidetracked by the water use distraction here when more natural gas and coal plants are coming online.
- doodlebugging 5mo ago
  >...the amount of water we’re talking about isn’t much on a national scale. Water issues are always local issues. There is no national water distribution system or national aquifer. >this will mean companies making some positive change in the communities where they build datacenters. This will remain to be seen. So far, if it had worked out that way then there would be less vocal opposition to these data centers. Local perception seems to be that there will be nuisance to dangerous noise levels; heat islands which can cause local disruptions to weather events; closed-door agreements to build this infrastructure instead of open community involvement in the process; and other issues including concerns about excessive water usage especially in areas where there are already troubling water availability trends due to other forms of development. >when more natural gas and coal plants are coming online. Here in NTexas, the availability of and proximity to natural gas compression stations is key to data center siting from the ones that I have monitored. Plans seem to include construction of gas turbine generators to power the new data centers and these generators are sited on parcels very close to existing compressor stations and high-voltage power lines and small or medium local lakes.
mike_hearn 5mo ago
If it's not rational it's not reasonable. The two words are more or less synonyms, unless you're using the word reasonable to mean something like "not uncommon". AI does have clear tangible benefits everyone can see and understand! That's why ChatGPT has 800M+ actives! Those people aren't just experimenting anymore, they're getting real value. I myself ask models questions about all kinds of things many times per day, it's entirely replaced search engines for me. It's much more immediately useful than something like aviation which created a lot of noise and risk (objects falling out of the sky!) yet took many decades to become available at a price point ordinary people could afford.
- ajross 5mo ago
  > If it's not rational it's not reasonable. That seems needlessly pedantic, even for HN. I genuinely thought the scare quotes were spelling out the distinction I was making, but for the record: "Rational" is used in the sense of "derived from logic", or "correctly understood". "Reasonable" is used in the sense (this is very common in legal paradigms, for example) of "an understandable opinion", or "an idea likely to be held by a typical person".
- cycomanic 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - tomhow 5mo ago
    Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously... Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer... Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says... Assume good faith. Please don't post shallow dismissals... Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by ajross 5mo ago

tptacek 5mo ago

I don't see it that way at all, but then I'm a housing activist, and I've seen fiercer opposition to a 4-story apartment building than to some of these data centers. People just like opposing development. It's very satisfying! When I see a protest over a golf course opening, I'll take data center water use concerns seriously. The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built. People are being hypnotized by concentrated minority interests in specific spots in the country. The only big picture thing about it is the left-populist sideshow it's created.

no-name-here 5mo ago
> The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built. That seems very untrue - multiple areas have already banned data centers, and senators like Bernie Sanders have proposed stopping data centers nationwide. This is just the next phase of NIMBY-ism. Alternatively, source that the "data centers the industry wants are all going to get built"? > I've seen fiercer opposition to a 4-story apartment building than to some of these data centers. I'm guessing you're referring to rather cherry-picked data? I've seen data center opposition making even the national news, but I don't recall any '4-story apartment buildings' opposition doing so? And senators like Bernie Sanders are proposing halting data centers nationwide - are there any similar proposals to similarly outlaw such housing construction nationwide? > People just like opposing development.… When I see a protest over a golf course opening, I'll take data center water use concerns seriously. Agreed.
- taybin 5mo ago
  Bernie Sanders proposes a lot of things that are never implemented. I’m not sure his support is actually a useful signal of greater support.
  - bdangubic 5mo ago
    it is (unfortunately) quite the opposite, if you see what he supports there is a high likelyhood of that not happening.
- tptacek 5mo ago
  Of course multiple areas have already banned data centers. So what? The United States is absolutely enormous. Data center buildout --- especially for AI training --- has a much easier problem than housing does. Housing needs to be built near centers of economic activity, which means that every marginal unit of housing is likely to be infill and has to pass muster with relatively dense neighborhoods of people who hate development. Data centers tend to be sited in underutilized industrial tracts. There are lots of those around the country. I feel like what's obviously happening here is that people have a rooting interest against AI, and highly-publicized pushes against "AI data centers" in specific areas are simply sparking joy for people.
  - no-name-here 5mo ago
    Is the argument that opposition to, and proposed bans of, data centers are only occurring on sites near dense population centers, as opposed to even covering incredibly low density sites? I'd say data center opposition goes beyond housing opposition as state-wide or even national bans have been proposed. Many people similarly have a 'rooting interest' against public housing, public transit, even new housing in general in their area, and similarly celebrate when housing, transit, etc. get stopped. <shrug>
    - tptacek 5mo ago
      That's exactly what I'm saying. This is an old story; it's just getting airplay because of the "AI" connection.
cootsnuck 5mo ago
> The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built. If that was the case then why are the majority of data center projects getting scrapped? https://gizmodo.com/data-center-project-cancellations-quadrupled-in-2025-as-locals-fight-back-2000709669 https://gizmodo.com/data-center-project-cancellations-quadru... Why are insiders saying they only expect about 10% of data center projects to ever be completed? Why is 2026 already shaping up to have less than half of planned data centers break ground on construction? Local community opposition is a big driver but so is permitting and infra procurement. https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/energy-power-supply/why-ai-data-center-projects-face-years-of-delays-after-approval https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/energy-power-supply/why-... All of this is inconvenient to big tech's "inevitability" narratives.
- ojbyrne 5mo ago
  That Gizmodo article says none of the things you characterize it as saying. Except sorta - "Peter Freed, Meta’s former director of energy strategy, who spoke to Heatmap, expects only about 10% of the projects that are currently underway to ever be completed." Perhaps that's why he's a "former director" but that doesn't really qualify as an "insider."
  - cootsnuck 5mo ago
    Yea, my bad. "majority getting scrapped” was sloppy wording. More accurate to say would be that a big chunk of the AI data center pipeline looks delayed/speculative. 16GW is slated for 2026, but only 5GW is actually under construction. https://www.sightlineclimate.com/research/data-center-outlook https://www.sightlineclimate.com/research/data-center-outloo... I do think it's a bit ridiculous though to not consider someone a tech insider who was a director for a decade at one of the biggest tech companies in history...
hunterpayne 5mo ago
[flagged]

rcpt 5mo ago

> It's not a completely insane idea and like all things can be reasonably discussed Actually it's a completely insane idea that can't be reasonably discussed.

ronsor 5mo ago

> I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though. Freakouts about AI (which ultimately is what this is) aren't "rational" but they're eminently "reasonable". A lot of the "sneering" I see from everyone who isn't an investor or an executive is a consequence of resistance to outreach. It's very difficult to discuss subjects with people when many now interpret factual explanations as propaganda and reassurance as manipulation. By the way, plenty of people feared electricity a great deal (and it wasn't exactly implemented safely when it was new). In the 90s, many people also thought the Internet was a temporary fad, a mere novelty that would fade in some years.

pesus 5mo ago
Maybe the issue is the "reassurance" is identical to propaganda and manipulation. It definitely doesn't help that the companies having to "reassure" people have aligned themselves with so many others that have been pushing propaganda to manipulate others for some time now. Nor does it help that many of the same companies that need to "reassure" people are also actively doing the opposite - see the billboards bragging about not hiring humans, or CEOs bragging about how AI will replace the majority of people and leave them destitute. There's no reason for someone to trust any "reassurance" when there are so many signals indicating they shouldn't.
- ToValueFunfetti 5mo ago
  Reassurance is identical to propaganda and manipulation insofar as all attempt to convey beliefs. Reassurance, here, should be apparently different in that it conveys true information. In the history of mankind, it has never been easier to discern between true and false information. If people want to throw up their hands and start believing whatever feels right, they are permitted to do so. Though they have a duty not to as citizens of a democracy, they have the right to actively pursue policies based on falsehoods. Let's not pretend it's a reasonable or respectable reaction to seeing billboards. If somebody does want to give up on research and working out the truth, please actually give up and say you don't know. Stop coming to the city council meetings and plastering "millions of gallons" on even the social medias where that's surprising.

ashdksnndck 5mo ago

> I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though. The industry is actually doing real work on water issues in response to these complaints. Big tech companies are funding projects that will allow them to replenish more water than their datacenters consume. This isn’t actually that hard of a goal for them to meet, because as we know, the amount of water we’re talking about isn’t much on a national scale. Regardless, this will mean companies making some positive change in the communities where they build datacenters. Anyway, all of this is a distraction compared to the real problem of carbon emissions. It confuses me that environmentalists are getting sidetracked by the water use distraction here when more natural gas and coal plants are coming online.

doodlebugging 5mo ago
>...the amount of water we’re talking about isn’t much on a national scale. Water issues are always local issues. There is no national water distribution system or national aquifer. >this will mean companies making some positive change in the communities where they build datacenters. This will remain to be seen. So far, if it had worked out that way then there would be less vocal opposition to these data centers. Local perception seems to be that there will be nuisance to dangerous noise levels; heat islands which can cause local disruptions to weather events; closed-door agreements to build this infrastructure instead of open community involvement in the process; and other issues including concerns about excessive water usage especially in areas where there are already troubling water availability trends due to other forms of development. >when more natural gas and coal plants are coming online. Here in NTexas, the availability of and proximity to natural gas compression stations is key to data center siting from the ones that I have monitored. Plans seem to include construction of gas turbine generators to power the new data centers and these generators are sited on parcels very close to existing compressor stations and high-voltage power lines and small or medium local lakes.

mike_hearn 5mo ago

If it's not rational it's not reasonable. The two words are more or less synonyms, unless you're using the word reasonable to mean something like "not uncommon". AI does have clear tangible benefits everyone can see and understand! That's why ChatGPT has 800M+ actives! Those people aren't just experimenting anymore, they're getting real value. I myself ask models questions about all kinds of things many times per day, it's entirely replaced search engines for me. It's much more immediately useful than something like aviation which created a lot of noise and risk (objects falling out of the sky!) yet took many decades to become available at a price point ordinary people could afford.

ajross 5mo ago
> If it's not rational it's not reasonable. That seems needlessly pedantic, even for HN. I genuinely thought the scare quotes were spelling out the distinction I was making, but for the record: "Rational" is used in the sense of "derived from logic", or "correctly understood". "Reasonable" is used in the sense (this is very common in legal paradigms, for example) of "an understandable opinion", or "an idea likely to be held by a typical person".
cycomanic 5mo ago
[flagged]
- tomhow 5mo ago
  Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously... Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer... Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says... Assume good faith. Please don't post shallow dismissals... Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html