4 ms·

There's Never Been a Better Time to Study Computer Science

32 points by zekrioca 4mo ago

zekrioca 4mo ago
https://archive.is/ka3wn https://archive.is/ka3wn
svachalek 4mo ago
`Geoffrey Challen, a computer scientist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, plans to offer a new course this fall in which he will teach students to develop software “without writing, reading, debugging, or viewing a single line of code,” he told me.` This is "studying computer science" now? Vibe coding is easy and fun, but why spend 4 years and a small fortune to study it when practically anyone can pick it up over a weekend?
- mikeweiss 4mo ago
  You never really had to get a formal education in programming to be successful before AI either....
- hyperhello 4mo ago
  Computer Science without code is as worthless as literary study without reading. That curriculum is going to be torture.
  - bwhiting2356 4mo ago
    Teaching systems is useful. The worst vibe coding I've seen has been bad system design choices. But I agree that we should also still look at the code.
  - ninjalanternshk 4mo ago
    I had an algorithms class in undergrad where we designed algorithms for computers with specific memory and processor configurations that didn’t exist, and specifically, would never be built. But we studied algorithms for them anyway.
  - layla5alive 4mo ago
    Heh, I think you meant to say math. Plenty of theoretical CS is study of things like algorithms, which looks more like math proofs than code. But we can all agree that vibe coding has little to do with Computer Science. And if you're not touching or reviewing the code, little to do with anything resembling software engineering, either!
    - coldtea 4mo ago
      >Plenty of theoretical CS is study of things like algorithms, which looks more like math proofs than code Even those are just going to be outsourced to AI by the "students"
      - whattheheckheck 4mo ago
        "Make no mistakes" Is the non-math ceo going to validate his formula is right?
- alun 4mo ago
  Yeah this one definitely seems like the wrong approach. I prefer the approach of the other professor who makes her students write the code by hand (with the analogy of how grade schoolers learn basic algebra by hand before they are allowed to use calculators). Although making students write it on paper (as described) feels extreme. Why not just make them write the code manually on a regular IDE, see how it compiles, etc.?
laughing_man 4mo ago
Companies are laying off experienced developers 10,000 at a time with no end in sight. It's pretty irresponsible to be telling people it's a good time to get a Computer Science degree.
- qsxfthnkp2322 4mo ago
  Agree. Ai has placed the writing on the wall. killed this as a profession. I wish it wasn’t true. I have 15 years experience in the industry. Do not learn computer science these days. We all are f*** And I’m a guy who solidly believes in understanding the fundamentals.
  - hyperhello 4mo ago
    AI coding wouldn't even be an idea if you engineers hadn't turned everything into a peyote nightmare of distributed nodes. Stable, reliable, well-thought-out, debugged libraries are what we need. Write them!
    - coldtea 4mo ago
      Too little, too late.
    - qsxfthnkp2322 4mo ago
      I think you should be complaining at management and leadership not valuing human life.
    - hansmayer 4mo ago
      > if you engineers What are people like you who were bad at maths in school doing in engineering companies anyway?
rramadass 4mo ago
This is both True and False. We need more people who understand the software theories/models/mathematics/etc. of Computer Science and can develop large-scale systems via "Practical Software Engineering". Otoh, we need less of people who are mere Computer Programmers. I am not sure how many here on HN, are familiar with Computer-Aided Software Engineering (CASE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_software_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_software_engine...) methodologies/tools/techniques and how they were used for Round-Trip Engineering (RTE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-trip_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-trip_engineering). That unrealized promise can now be realized using AI tools. The idea was that you would have a Specification (Formal/Informal) defined by problem domain experts in some notation (textual/pictorial), have the tool generate code and the resulting artifact Verified (Formal/Informal) against the specification. A change in the specification will update the generated code and needed verification steps (and vice-versa) seamlessly. This is what a current CS graduate needs to focus on (for employment purposes); viz. 1) The full Software Engineering process with focus on Requirements Specification and Verification. There are lots of notations/techniques available which you need to become familiar with. Some examples are Parnas Tables (https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~jmatlee/Talks/Parnas01.pdf https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~jmatlee/Talks/Parnas01.pdf), Decision Tables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table), Structured English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_English) etc. 2) Formal Methods for Specification and Verification. Focus on the complete end-to-end methodology like for example; The B-Method - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-Method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-Method Another example is to use Prolog for system specification. 3) Devising a methodology to trace the specification through the AI generated code using the above. For example, you can have the agent map the specifications to preconditions/postconditions/invariants in the runtime code and then have it extract those into appropriate functional documentation so you can see how functional requirements are enforced. 4) Understanding "Correctness-By-Construction"/"Design-By-Contract" approaches to software development which must be used for AI code generation. 5) Your AI prompt is now the specification. It would be a mix of Formal and Informal since only Formal can assure traceability. You have to find the balance for yourself and your problem. The above are the main points. Each can be detailed further based on your CS study ;-)

32 points by zekrioca 4mo ago

https://archive.is/ka3wn https://archive.is/ka3wn

`Geoffrey Challen, a computer scientist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, plans to offer a new course this fall in which he will teach students to develop software “without writing, reading, debugging, or viewing a single line of code,” he told me.` This is "studying computer science" now? Vibe coding is easy and fun, but why spend 4 years and a small fortune to study it when practically anyone can pick it up over a weekend?

mikeweiss 4mo ago
You never really had to get a formal education in programming to be successful before AI either....
hyperhello 4mo ago
Computer Science without code is as worthless as literary study without reading. That curriculum is going to be torture.
- bwhiting2356 4mo ago
  Teaching systems is useful. The worst vibe coding I've seen has been bad system design choices. But I agree that we should also still look at the code.
- ninjalanternshk 4mo ago
  I had an algorithms class in undergrad where we designed algorithms for computers with specific memory and processor configurations that didn’t exist, and specifically, would never be built. But we studied algorithms for them anyway.
- layla5alive 4mo ago
  Heh, I think you meant to say math. Plenty of theoretical CS is study of things like algorithms, which looks more like math proofs than code. But we can all agree that vibe coding has little to do with Computer Science. And if you're not touching or reviewing the code, little to do with anything resembling software engineering, either!
  - coldtea 4mo ago
    >Plenty of theoretical CS is study of things like algorithms, which looks more like math proofs than code Even those are just going to be outsourced to AI by the "students"
    - whattheheckheck 4mo ago
      "Make no mistakes" Is the non-math ceo going to validate his formula is right?
alun 4mo ago
Yeah this one definitely seems like the wrong approach. I prefer the approach of the other professor who makes her students write the code by hand (with the analogy of how grade schoolers learn basic algebra by hand before they are allowed to use calculators). Although making students write it on paper (as described) feels extreme. Why not just make them write the code manually on a regular IDE, see how it compiles, etc.?

laughing_man 4mo ago

Companies are laying off experienced developers 10,000 at a time with no end in sight. It's pretty irresponsible to be telling people it's a good time to get a Computer Science degree.

qsxfthnkp2322 4mo ago
Agree. Ai has placed the writing on the wall. killed this as a profession. I wish it wasn’t true. I have 15 years experience in the industry. Do not learn computer science these days. We all are f*** And I’m a guy who solidly believes in understanding the fundamentals.
- hyperhello 4mo ago
  AI coding wouldn't even be an idea if you engineers hadn't turned everything into a peyote nightmare of distributed nodes. Stable, reliable, well-thought-out, debugged libraries are what we need. Write them!
  - coldtea 4mo ago
    Too little, too late.
  - qsxfthnkp2322 4mo ago
    I think you should be complaining at management and leadership not valuing human life.
  - hansmayer 4mo ago
    > if you engineers What are people like you who were bad at maths in school doing in engineering companies anyway?

rramadass 4mo ago

This is both True and False. We need more people who understand the software theories/models/mathematics/etc. of Computer Science and can develop large-scale systems via "Practical Software Engineering". Otoh, we need less of people who are mere Computer Programmers. I am not sure how many here on HN, are familiar with Computer-Aided Software Engineering (CASE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_software_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_software_engine...) methodologies/tools/techniques and how they were used for Round-Trip Engineering (RTE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-trip_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-trip_engineering). That unrealized promise can now be realized using AI tools. The idea was that you would have a Specification (Formal/Informal) defined by problem domain experts in some notation (textual/pictorial), have the tool generate code and the resulting artifact Verified (Formal/Informal) against the specification. A change in the specification will update the generated code and needed verification steps (and vice-versa) seamlessly. This is what a current CS graduate needs to focus on (for employment purposes); viz. 1) The full Software Engineering process with focus on Requirements Specification and Verification. There are lots of notations/techniques available which you need to become familiar with. Some examples are Parnas Tables (https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~jmatlee/Talks/Parnas01.pdf https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~jmatlee/Talks/Parnas01.pdf), Decision Tables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table), Structured English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_English) etc. 2) Formal Methods for Specification and Verification. Focus on the complete end-to-end methodology like for example; The B-Method - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-Method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-Method Another example is to use Prolog for system specification. 3) Devising a methodology to trace the specification through the AI generated code using the above. For example, you can have the agent map the specifications to preconditions/postconditions/invariants in the runtime code and then have it extract those into appropriate functional documentation so you can see how functional requirements are enforced. 4) Understanding "Correctness-By-Construction"/"Design-By-Contract" approaches to software development which must be used for AI code generation. 5) Your AI prompt is now the specification. It would be a mix of Formal and Informal since only Formal can assure traceability. You have to find the balance for yourself and your problem. The above are the main points. Each can be detailed further based on your CS study ;-)