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These are all non-immigrant visa classes. The understanding is that you are temporarily immigrating to the United States. Why should it be surprising then that

These are all non-immigrant visa classes. The understanding is that you are temporarily immigrating to the United States. Why should it be surprising then that it is hard to become a permanent resident/immigrant if you explicitly came on a non-immigrant visa?

MagicMoonlight 4mo ago
There is no immigrant visa by that logic. Unless you count the one that costs a million dollars.
- sjhatfield 4mo ago
  Spousal one? I got it outside the US
  - abalashov 4mo ago
    Yeah, that's one notable exception. Doesn't invalidate the generalisation.
    - hluska 4mo ago
      I’m pretty sure it did.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 4mo ago
        Perhaps you're the exception that proves some rule?
        Auracle 4mo ago
        That's a pretty big exception.
05 4mo ago
H1B and O1 are dual intent..
feelingsonice 4mo ago
Because coming to the United States on a non-immigrant visa is pretty much the only way that a person can hope to become a US citizen (or green card holder) eventually.
abalashov 4mo ago
There isn't really such a thing as an immigrant visa. These non-immigrant visas are the only legal route to come here, by and large, excluding a few obvious exceptions like marriage to an American. Also, it's quite hard to become a permanent resident/immigrant even without the obstacle of this being categorically prohibited. My family, for instance, overcame some very low odds of success to make this happen (highly educated, both PhDs, for what it's worth). I have learned that most Americans, probably through no fault of their own, have absolutely no understanding of how their own immigration system works. The options for legal immigration were _extremely_ limited and byzantine, and have been for decades, long before Trump.
- throw-the-towel 4mo ago
  That's interesting. European countries do have immigrant visas, and I think Canada does too. (As in, a visa that's issued for the sole purpose of letting you immigrate.)
  - bmelton 4mo ago
    If it seems too interesting it's because it isn't true. There are five functional categories of immigrant visa in America, each with several subcategories: Immediate Relatives (IR), Family Preference (F), Employment Based (EB), Special (S), and Diversity (D). The last one is basically done by lottery.
    - bigmadshoe 4mo ago
      How many people become permanent residents of the US through these visas, as opposed to the others?
      - chimeracoder 4mo ago
        > How many people become permanent residents of the US through these visas, as opposed to the others? The majority of permanent residents gain their green card through a status adjustment (ie, from a nonimmigrant visa). Status adjustments are the norm, not some fringe edge case.
nextaccountic 4mo ago
All I hear is that there's a subset of people that don't want immigrants at all. And for some godforsaken reason they got hold of the executive, legislative and supreme court
- abalashov 4mo ago
  That's the only conclusion I can see.
- lovich 4mo ago
  We’re going for round 3 of jingoist isolationist Americans not understanding how the world or their own culture and government works. Wonder if we’ll get a third world war that we stay out of until halfway through and then pile on at the end.
- Jblx2 4mo ago
  >a subset of people that don't want immigrants at all. Does anyone have data on what this percentage is? Seems like it could be 55%: https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-immigration.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-i...
  - leptons 4mo ago
    I'd be willing to bet at least 10% of those 55% are married to or in relationships with immigrants and are going to say "Not like that!" when their loved ones are forced to leave the country. FAFO is coming for them.
    - kdheiwns 4mo ago
      And then the overwhelming remainder of those 55% very likely love talking about their Italian/Irish/Polish/Cuban/whatever heritage and see no sense of contradiction.
  - tclancy 4mo ago
    “Do you want Johny Stinking Foreigner coming to this country, stealing your job while collecting welfare and raping your daughters or would you like how America used to be when there were no immigrants?” The problem at this point (and not just the US, throughout the west), I don’t think a pollster even needs to slant their question. So many people have been taught that lens over 100+ years of politics. It’s why I am happy to be Irish American: we never forget a slight, so I am a living vessel for the stories of every time one of my great-grandparents was treated poorly for being a dirty, non-white papist piece of jetsam.
lovich 4mo ago
I don’t see a carve out for spousal or family reunification applications. Those weren’t services for the benefit of the immigrant. Those were a service to the US citizen who sponsored them and had to sign up to be on the hook to take care of their welfare. The government was very clear to my spouse that she could divorce me the second her application was granted and I was still on the hook for any welfare she may end up needing. This is just being anti immigrant. The same way they talk about illegal aliens and then you find out they really mean legal asylum seekers because they don’t like the process. Or when they use the phrase Heritage Americans to discount recent immigrants. Or when they just straight up say we have too much legal immigration. The only surprising thing about this change in policy to me is that they are still keeping a veneer of not being racist on it, instead of just being as open as they have in other cases.
skeeter2020 4mo ago
because the government realize more than 75 years ago that conditions change and "adjustment of status" can be in everyone's best interest. People get married, students graduate and get jobs or start companies, and so on. It was never about rubber-stamping greencards; they're still tough to get. It was about making it more efficient and keeping strong players in the US. If you send 100 students back to their home country after they graduate, more than 50 of them won't come back.
saberience 4mo ago
This seems like one of the most obtuse or bad faith comments I’ve ever seen. Practically every country has pathways to permanent residence or citizenship via non immigrant visas, including the US. Why? Because it makes practical sense. You can be living in the US on a H1 visa for 6 years, and at this point you could have a wife, kids etc, so it makes sense to have a pathway to residency where you don’t have to leave the country at that point.

MagicMoonlight 4mo ago

There is no immigrant visa by that logic. Unless you count the one that costs a million dollars.

sjhatfield 4mo ago
Spousal one? I got it outside the US
- abalashov 4mo ago
  Yeah, that's one notable exception. Doesn't invalidate the generalisation.
  - hluska 4mo ago
    I’m pretty sure it did.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4mo ago
      Perhaps you're the exception that proves some rule?
      - Auracle 4mo ago
        That's a pretty big exception.

05 4mo ago

H1B and O1 are dual intent..

feelingsonice 4mo ago

Because coming to the United States on a non-immigrant visa is pretty much the only way that a person can hope to become a US citizen (or green card holder) eventually.

abalashov 4mo ago

There isn't really such a thing as an immigrant visa. These non-immigrant visas are the only legal route to come here, by and large, excluding a few obvious exceptions like marriage to an American. Also, it's quite hard to become a permanent resident/immigrant even without the obstacle of this being categorically prohibited. My family, for instance, overcame some very low odds of success to make this happen (highly educated, both PhDs, for what it's worth). I have learned that most Americans, probably through no fault of their own, have absolutely no understanding of how their own immigration system works. The options for legal immigration were _extremely_ limited and byzantine, and have been for decades, long before Trump.

throw-the-towel 4mo ago
That's interesting. European countries do have immigrant visas, and I think Canada does too. (As in, a visa that's issued for the sole purpose of letting you immigrate.)
- bmelton 4mo ago
  If it seems too interesting it's because it isn't true. There are five functional categories of immigrant visa in America, each with several subcategories: Immediate Relatives (IR), Family Preference (F), Employment Based (EB), Special (S), and Diversity (D). The last one is basically done by lottery.
  - bigmadshoe 4mo ago
    How many people become permanent residents of the US through these visas, as opposed to the others?
    - chimeracoder 4mo ago
      > How many people become permanent residents of the US through these visas, as opposed to the others? The majority of permanent residents gain their green card through a status adjustment (ie, from a nonimmigrant visa). Status adjustments are the norm, not some fringe edge case.

nextaccountic 4mo ago

All I hear is that there's a subset of people that don't want immigrants at all. And for some godforsaken reason they got hold of the executive, legislative and supreme court

abalashov 4mo ago
That's the only conclusion I can see.
lovich 4mo ago
We’re going for round 3 of jingoist isolationist Americans not understanding how the world or their own culture and government works. Wonder if we’ll get a third world war that we stay out of until halfway through and then pile on at the end.
Jblx2 4mo ago
>a subset of people that don't want immigrants at all. Does anyone have data on what this percentage is? Seems like it could be 55%: https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-immigration.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-i...
- leptons 4mo ago
  I'd be willing to bet at least 10% of those 55% are married to or in relationships with immigrants and are going to say "Not like that!" when their loved ones are forced to leave the country. FAFO is coming for them.
  - kdheiwns 4mo ago
    And then the overwhelming remainder of those 55% very likely love talking about their Italian/Irish/Polish/Cuban/whatever heritage and see no sense of contradiction.
- tclancy 4mo ago
  “Do you want Johny Stinking Foreigner coming to this country, stealing your job while collecting welfare and raping your daughters or would you like how America used to be when there were no immigrants?” The problem at this point (and not just the US, throughout the west), I don’t think a pollster even needs to slant their question. So many people have been taught that lens over 100+ years of politics. It’s why I am happy to be Irish American: we never forget a slight, so I am a living vessel for the stories of every time one of my great-grandparents was treated poorly for being a dirty, non-white papist piece of jetsam.

lovich 4mo ago

I don’t see a carve out for spousal or family reunification applications. Those weren’t services for the benefit of the immigrant. Those were a service to the US citizen who sponsored them and had to sign up to be on the hook to take care of their welfare. The government was very clear to my spouse that she could divorce me the second her application was granted and I was still on the hook for any welfare she may end up needing. This is just being anti immigrant. The same way they talk about illegal aliens and then you find out they really mean legal asylum seekers because they don’t like the process. Or when they use the phrase Heritage Americans to discount recent immigrants. Or when they just straight up say we have too much legal immigration. The only surprising thing about this change in policy to me is that they are still keeping a veneer of not being racist on it, instead of just being as open as they have in other cases.

skeeter2020 4mo ago

because the government realize more than 75 years ago that conditions change and "adjustment of status" can be in everyone's best interest. People get married, students graduate and get jobs or start companies, and so on. It was never about rubber-stamping greencards; they're still tough to get. It was about making it more efficient and keeping strong players in the US. If you send 100 students back to their home country after they graduate, more than 50 of them won't come back.

saberience 4mo ago

This seems like one of the most obtuse or bad faith comments I’ve ever seen. Practically every country has pathways to permanent residence or citizenship via non immigrant visas, including the US. Why? Because it makes practical sense. You can be living in the US on a H1 visa for 6 years, and at this point you could have a wife, kids etc, so it makes sense to have a pathway to residency where you don’t have to leave the country at that point.