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Agree with half, but don't worry about: JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill. HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet. Optim

Agree with half, but don't worry about: JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill. HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet. Optimization: Sure, but don't preoptimize so rather go looking for the tools once your app tells you it's slow. Also minified JS is great to save a tiny bit of bandwidth and obfuscate, but damn it's a pain to debug your live site.

Toshio 14y ago
> "HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet." Say what? You probably meant to say "most of the internet explorer installed base doesn't have support for it" which is a far, far cry from "most of the web".
- pjmlp 14y ago
  Like all the remaining browsers if you really need to cover a wide array of devices, operating systems and browsers. Web development is pretty much code once, fix everywhere.
  - napoleond 14y ago
    Web development is pretty much code once, fix everywhere. I'm tweeting this. Brilliant.
- rymith 14y ago
  No, what he said was correct. Even my beloved chrome does not have 100% compliance. Now combine the incomplete implementations, coupled with the rate of browser adoption, HTML5 simply isn't ubiquitous for a number of years. So you will be looking at polyfills and excanvas scripts for the foreseeable future. What he could have said was 100% of the web does not have 100% support for HTML5.
  - georgemcbay 14y ago
    And when "HTML5" (whatever that means anymore) finally is ubiquitous it'll be the old tired standard and everyone will be dying for the day they can finally use all that hot new stuff in the next version. Thus is the nature of any technology whose design is controlled largely by a committee of companies who are each other's top competitors.
- disgruntledphd2 14y ago
  Yeah, but IE is huge. It really is, and I wouldn't have believed it before I started working on a large site in Europe (approx 900K uniques per day). At least a third of our visitors are using IE, sometimes even IE8 or 7 (we've finally gotten rid of 6). I often wonder who these people are, and then I talk to my boss, who uses IE8 and complains constantly that we all use Chrome (on Windows, FF for the win on a decent machine/machine running Linux). So yeah, unfortunately, if you're doing ecommerce for ordinary people, you're stuck with supporting IE and the whole host of issues that entails. Seriously, 100char limit? WTF Microsoft, fix that already.
jameswyse 14y ago
> "JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill." This depends entirely on what you're making. JS frameworks like AngularJS really ease the pain of building rich, interactive web apps. > "HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet." HTML5 is a moving target, modules are now versioned separately so there is no true/false for support. The fact is you can use a lot of the really useful changes so far in the most used modern browsers and there's polyfills/shivs to help IE9 and below. Now that we're all moving to auto-updating browsers we should see a much faster rollout of new features than we have in the past. > "Optimization: go looking for the tools once your app tells you it's slow" If you can solve a problem before it happens then you should do it, it should be part of your deployment process. If you're just making simple sites then apps like CodeKit can take care of everything for you. > "damn it's a pain to debug your live site." So don't try to debug a live site, that's silly!
amazedsaint 14y ago
About JS MVC frameworks - It's about scaling your development teams by putting a re-usable pattern in place so that things will jell together. HTML5 - My point was, understand the parts you can use now. Optimization - Again, do it when you are ready to do it.
- balloot 14y ago
  You can scale development teams and put re-usable patterns in place without pushing all your templates and view logic to the client. That's what libraries like Backbone are made to do, and I would agree it is generally overkill to implement a site that way.
  - amazedsaint 14y ago
    Was talking about leveraging a suitable, existing library that follows a MV* pattern, not about creating your mygreatnextjsmv*. About implementation - definitely depends on use cases. Anyway, learning them won't hurt anyway.
- saraid216 14y ago
  > About JS MVC frameworks - It's about scaling your development teams by putting a re-usable pattern in place so that things will jell together. But is MVC the right pattern all the time? I really doubt it.
randomdata 14y ago
MVC in JS is almost always overkill. I disagree. The last thing you want is JS spaghetti, no matter how small or simple your pages may be. Full MVC frameworks like, say, Backbone, are usually overkill, but I haven't seen many web pages with JS that couldn't use MVC patterns in some capacity.
d1plo1d 14y ago
> JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill. Unless your bread and butter is modern web apps (ie. json driven sites with websockets/long polling) which, at least in my neck of the woods, seem to be rapidly becoming the norm. Without backbone.js it would not be possible for me to do any of my current client's projects on the timelines I'm doing them, simple as that. That said, learning every client-side mvc is probably a mistake too. Just research them and learn the one that you feel is best.

Toshio 14y ago

> "HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet." Say what? You probably meant to say "most of the internet explorer installed base doesn't have support for it" which is a far, far cry from "most of the web".

pjmlp 14y ago
Like all the remaining browsers if you really need to cover a wide array of devices, operating systems and browsers. Web development is pretty much code once, fix everywhere.
- napoleond 14y ago
  Web development is pretty much code once, fix everywhere. I'm tweeting this. Brilliant.
rymith 14y ago
No, what he said was correct. Even my beloved chrome does not have 100% compliance. Now combine the incomplete implementations, coupled with the rate of browser adoption, HTML5 simply isn't ubiquitous for a number of years. So you will be looking at polyfills and excanvas scripts for the foreseeable future. What he could have said was 100% of the web does not have 100% support for HTML5.
- georgemcbay 14y ago
  And when "HTML5" (whatever that means anymore) finally is ubiquitous it'll be the old tired standard and everyone will be dying for the day they can finally use all that hot new stuff in the next version. Thus is the nature of any technology whose design is controlled largely by a committee of companies who are each other's top competitors.
disgruntledphd2 14y ago
Yeah, but IE is huge. It really is, and I wouldn't have believed it before I started working on a large site in Europe (approx 900K uniques per day). At least a third of our visitors are using IE, sometimes even IE8 or 7 (we've finally gotten rid of 6). I often wonder who these people are, and then I talk to my boss, who uses IE8 and complains constantly that we all use Chrome (on Windows, FF for the win on a decent machine/machine running Linux). So yeah, unfortunately, if you're doing ecommerce for ordinary people, you're stuck with supporting IE and the whole host of issues that entails. Seriously, 100char limit? WTF Microsoft, fix that already.

jameswyse 14y ago

> "JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill." This depends entirely on what you're making. JS frameworks like AngularJS really ease the pain of building rich, interactive web apps. > "HTML5: Most of the web doesn't have support for it yet." HTML5 is a moving target, modules are now versioned separately so there is no true/false for support. The fact is you can use a lot of the really useful changes so far in the most used modern browsers and there's polyfills/shivs to help IE9 and below. Now that we're all moving to auto-updating browsers we should see a much faster rollout of new features than we have in the past. > "Optimization: go looking for the tools once your app tells you it's slow" If you can solve a problem before it happens then you should do it, it should be part of your deployment process. If you're just making simple sites then apps like CodeKit can take care of everything for you. > "damn it's a pain to debug your live site." So don't try to debug a live site, that's silly!

amazedsaint 14y ago

About JS MVC frameworks - It's about scaling your development teams by putting a re-usable pattern in place so that things will jell together. HTML5 - My point was, understand the parts you can use now. Optimization - Again, do it when you are ready to do it.

balloot 14y ago
You can scale development teams and put re-usable patterns in place without pushing all your templates and view logic to the client. That's what libraries like Backbone are made to do, and I would agree it is generally overkill to implement a site that way.
- amazedsaint 14y ago
  Was talking about leveraging a suitable, existing library that follows a MV* pattern, not about creating your mygreatnextjsmv*. About implementation - definitely depends on use cases. Anyway, learning them won't hurt anyway.
saraid216 14y ago
> About JS MVC frameworks - It's about scaling your development teams by putting a re-usable pattern in place so that things will jell together. But is MVC the right pattern all the time? I really doubt it.

randomdata 14y ago

MVC in JS is almost always overkill. I disagree. The last thing you want is JS spaghetti, no matter how small or simple your pages may be. Full MVC frameworks like, say, Backbone, are usually overkill, but I haven't seen many web pages with JS that couldn't use MVC patterns in some capacity.

d1plo1d 14y ago

> JS MVC frameworks: MVC in JS is almost always overkill. Unless your bread and butter is modern web apps (ie. json driven sites with websockets/long polling) which, at least in my neck of the woods, seem to be rapidly becoming the norm. Without backbone.js it would not be possible for me to do any of my current client's projects on the timelines I'm doing them, simple as that. That said, learning every client-side mvc is probably a mistake too. Just research them and learn the one that you feel is best.