4 ms·

About 90% of the world lived in poverty before capitalism. Besides, America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings.

account42 5mo ago
> Besides, America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings. Only if you define the standard of living in a consumerist way.
- sokoloff 5mo ago
  Would you willingly swap your life (or the life of your child) for that of a medieval king? I sure wouldn’t.
  - WalterBright 5mo ago
    Neither would I.
samiv 5mo ago
The fact that some countries (mostly the political west) developed a wealthy middle class post WW2 was not due to capitalism but due to social democracy. Capitalism by itself does not produce egalitarian wealthy society. The system divides the populace into "capital owners" and "workers" who are in direct conflict. There are plenty of capitalistic countries where most people are poor. In fact many of the as said Western countries has also high levels of poverty while running capitalism in the 1800 etc until post WW2 social democratic movements. Once you dismantle those social democratic constructs such as labor unions and start shifting more power to the capital holders you'll see how the society splits apart to rich and poor. The rich use their wealth and power to rig the system to benefit themselves even more and become richer at the expense of everyone else. Ultimately they will remove democracy because functional real democracy is a threat to their wealth.
- WalterBright 5mo ago
  The middle class emerged in colonial America. During the 1800s, scores of millions of people came to the US with little more than a suitcase. They went into the middle class, and some into the wealthy. We know this because: 1. Average height increased throughout the 1800s 2. Life expectancy increased throughout the 1800s 3. Plenty of photos and paintings of towns that consist of middle class housing > The system divides the populace into "capital owners" and "workers" who are in direct conflict. That's what Marx claimed. I've had many jobs. In none of them was I ever in conflict. It was a negotiated relationship, where I provided labor and expertise in exchange for money. I've also been a boss, and if you ever have been you'd know you had no power over your employees. They only work for you because they want to. When they stopped wanting to, they simply disappear, and there's not a thing I could do about it. In the US, every worker has the power to walk away and start their own business. The wealthy in America did not come from wealthy immigrants, they came from poor immigrants.
  - samiv 5mo ago
    Most employees have absolutely Zero leverage. Ask any Amazon warehouse worker how much liberties they have and how much in practice they can negotiate. Just because some employees have had some leverage doesn't change the underlying power dynamics between employers and employees. In fact we're now seeing this play out in software as well with the AI hype train and I expect a reality check to hit many people previously in their cushy office jobs.
    - WalterBright 5mo ago
      > Most employees have absolutely Zero leverage. They can walk away at any moment and there's absolutely nothing Amazon can do about it. Amazon pays significantly above minimum wage. Why don't they pay minimum wage? Amazon benefits to warehouse workers include heavily subsidized health care (starting at $5 per week), up to 20 weeks of paid parental leave, prepaid college tuition, and a 401(k) company match. That's the leverage workers have.
      - 5mo ago
imtringued 5mo ago
People living with room mates working 80 hours a week have a higher standard of living than kings? Do you even listen to yourself?
- WalterBright 5mo ago
  Let's enumerate a few things: 1. Today's poor are as tall as rich people, meaning they get plenty of nutritious food. They're taller than medieval kings. 2. Fresh vegetables and fruit from all over the world 365 days a year. 3. Flush toilets. 4. Air conditioning 5. Central heating 6. Infinitely better medical care 7. Endless amazing entertainment at the push of a button 8. Can communicate with anyone in the world, for free 9. Anything you want to know, at the push of a button 10. Far better clothing 11. Cars you can drive anywhere 12. Fly at 30,000 feet in complete luxury across the country 13. Free education, in any field you want 14. Hot and cold running water 15. Hot showers 16. Microwave ovens I can go on if you like.

account42 5mo ago

> Besides, America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings. Only if you define the standard of living in a consumerist way.

sokoloff 5mo ago
Would you willingly swap your life (or the life of your child) for that of a medieval king? I sure wouldn’t.
- WalterBright 5mo ago
  Neither would I.

samiv 5mo ago

The fact that some countries (mostly the political west) developed a wealthy middle class post WW2 was not due to capitalism but due to social democracy. Capitalism by itself does not produce egalitarian wealthy society. The system divides the populace into "capital owners" and "workers" who are in direct conflict. There are plenty of capitalistic countries where most people are poor. In fact many of the as said Western countries has also high levels of poverty while running capitalism in the 1800 etc until post WW2 social democratic movements. Once you dismantle those social democratic constructs such as labor unions and start shifting more power to the capital holders you'll see how the society splits apart to rich and poor. The rich use their wealth and power to rig the system to benefit themselves even more and become richer at the expense of everyone else. Ultimately they will remove democracy because functional real democracy is a threat to their wealth.

WalterBright 5mo ago
The middle class emerged in colonial America. During the 1800s, scores of millions of people came to the US with little more than a suitcase. They went into the middle class, and some into the wealthy. We know this because: 1. Average height increased throughout the 1800s 2. Life expectancy increased throughout the 1800s 3. Plenty of photos and paintings of towns that consist of middle class housing > The system divides the populace into "capital owners" and "workers" who are in direct conflict. That's what Marx claimed. I've had many jobs. In none of them was I ever in conflict. It was a negotiated relationship, where I provided labor and expertise in exchange for money. I've also been a boss, and if you ever have been you'd know you had no power over your employees. They only work for you because they want to. When they stopped wanting to, they simply disappear, and there's not a thing I could do about it. In the US, every worker has the power to walk away and start their own business. The wealthy in America did not come from wealthy immigrants, they came from poor immigrants.
- samiv 5mo ago
  Most employees have absolutely Zero leverage. Ask any Amazon warehouse worker how much liberties they have and how much in practice they can negotiate. Just because some employees have had some leverage doesn't change the underlying power dynamics between employers and employees. In fact we're now seeing this play out in software as well with the AI hype train and I expect a reality check to hit many people previously in their cushy office jobs.
  - WalterBright 5mo ago
    > Most employees have absolutely Zero leverage. They can walk away at any moment and there's absolutely nothing Amazon can do about it. Amazon pays significantly above minimum wage. Why don't they pay minimum wage? Amazon benefits to warehouse workers include heavily subsidized health care (starting at $5 per week), up to 20 weeks of paid parental leave, prepaid college tuition, and a 401(k) company match. That's the leverage workers have.
    - 5mo ago

imtringued 5mo ago

People living with room mates working 80 hours a week have a higher standard of living than kings? Do you even listen to yourself?

WalterBright 5mo ago
Let's enumerate a few things: 1. Today's poor are as tall as rich people, meaning they get plenty of nutritious food. They're taller than medieval kings. 2. Fresh vegetables and fruit from all over the world 365 days a year. 3. Flush toilets. 4. Air conditioning 5. Central heating 6. Infinitely better medical care 7. Endless amazing entertainment at the push of a button 8. Can communicate with anyone in the world, for free 9. Anything you want to know, at the push of a button 10. Far better clothing 11. Cars you can drive anywhere 12. Fly at 30,000 feet in complete luxury across the country 13. Free education, in any field you want 14. Hot and cold running water 15. Hot showers 16. Microwave ovens I can go on if you like.