4 ms·

The title doesn't match the point of the video. What he is trying to show is the world would be a better place if we could establish that hybrids come in two fl

by 1970-01-01 5mo ago

The title doesn't match the point of the video. What he is trying to show is the world would be a better place if we could establish that hybrids come in two flavors: Toyota and non-Toyota. There's really no better hybrid design. Unfortunately that means they aren't scrapped after decades, and Mongolia has become a dumping ground for them.[1] So it still is the best hybrid drivetrain in the world, but much like plastic or PFAS or some other very long term problems, the old battery cannot be cheaply scrapped. Toyota's new lithium models like the Sienna in the video have solved that, but now you're just half-assing a conventional EV until solid state systems are ready. By 2030 I expect the last Toyota hybrid to be announced. [1] https://cna.asia/3PS4lrN https://cna.asia/3PS4lrN

xattt 5mo ago
> Since early 2025, the government has made battery exports illegal. This seems like a self-imposed problem, especially in a country with no advanced battery recycling capacity.
paulnpace 5mo ago
I'm still not sure about the shoehorning of Mongolia into the discussion, but what these sorts of comments often fail to discuss is what the supply chain into new things looks like, because that can be equally destructive to the environment. Generally, recyclers will pay for scrap that has minerals which can be recovered from the scrap. Toyota Siennas use liquid Ni-MH batteries. It is likely these batteries as scrap aren't being exported, or, if they are, they are exported to foreign recyclers (in this case, many of those recyclers are actually less polluting that U.S. recyclers simply because they built their plants this century and new technology pollutes less). Also, Ni-MH can be replaced one cell at a time to produce "rebuilt" battery packs sold to economy customers, and "spent" cells, which simply fail performance tests, can often be used in other applications that are less demanding than hybrid vehicles. There is a cottage industry here in the U.S. doing these things. Ni-MH that is exported is usually completely dead cells going to a recycler (smelter), or at least that was my experience when I worked in that supply chain. Li-ion using Cobalt is highly sought after by recyclers due to the expense of virgin Cobalt, so experiences a similar supply chain to Ni-MH. LMO chemistry batteries were the ones nobody wanted to touch, as they have no value, and they are all of the cheap replacement batteries people buy on Amazon for $15, and likely will be the chemistry people will use in their EU mandated replacement battery phones for some nightmare future mass pollution disasters.
- 1970-01-01 5mo ago
  You're right about the Sienna. I was thinking about the Pacifica hybrid lithium battery. I think the greatest concern here is the fact that lithium batteries are the future and the NiMH systems turn into legacy trash once they lose balance in the 2030s and everything is lithium or solid state. Nobody will be interested in reviving the packs when lithium batteries are cheaper, better, and prolific.
klooney 5mo ago
Ford's hybrids come from the Toyota tree, although they've diverged. The new Honda hybrids are more like a generator + ev, which is also pretty interesting.
kube-system 5mo ago
Toyota’s system is good but I personally prefer series hybrids which have power delivery more like an EV.
- IcyWindows 5mo ago
  The video makes the argument that there is a lot of efficiency loss by converting to mechanical energy twice.
  - kube-system 5mo ago
    In general, that is correct. But there are also efficiency losses by running the engine at higher speeds off-throttle, which is a weakness of the Toyota design. Hybrids run in many different modes of operation under a wide variety of load and speed conditions, and there are strengths and weaknesses to each.
dzonga 5mo ago
africa imports a lot of used Japanese vehicles as well - majority of vehicles on the road in RHD countries r ex-jap. I think - that's still a good thing though - as long as the used ex-jap hybrid vehicle can still save fuel. Chinese EVs n hybrids will probably make that less common as they're cheap enough.

xattt 5mo ago

> Since early 2025, the government has made battery exports illegal. This seems like a self-imposed problem, especially in a country with no advanced battery recycling capacity.

paulnpace 5mo ago

I'm still not sure about the shoehorning of Mongolia into the discussion, but what these sorts of comments often fail to discuss is what the supply chain into new things looks like, because that can be equally destructive to the environment. Generally, recyclers will pay for scrap that has minerals which can be recovered from the scrap. Toyota Siennas use liquid Ni-MH batteries. It is likely these batteries as scrap aren't being exported, or, if they are, they are exported to foreign recyclers (in this case, many of those recyclers are actually less polluting that U.S. recyclers simply because they built their plants this century and new technology pollutes less). Also, Ni-MH can be replaced one cell at a time to produce "rebuilt" battery packs sold to economy customers, and "spent" cells, which simply fail performance tests, can often be used in other applications that are less demanding than hybrid vehicles. There is a cottage industry here in the U.S. doing these things. Ni-MH that is exported is usually completely dead cells going to a recycler (smelter), or at least that was my experience when I worked in that supply chain. Li-ion using Cobalt is highly sought after by recyclers due to the expense of virgin Cobalt, so experiences a similar supply chain to Ni-MH. LMO chemistry batteries were the ones nobody wanted to touch, as they have no value, and they are all of the cheap replacement batteries people buy on Amazon for $15, and likely will be the chemistry people will use in their EU mandated replacement battery phones for some nightmare future mass pollution disasters.

1970-01-01 5mo ago
You're right about the Sienna. I was thinking about the Pacifica hybrid lithium battery. I think the greatest concern here is the fact that lithium batteries are the future and the NiMH systems turn into legacy trash once they lose balance in the 2030s and everything is lithium or solid state. Nobody will be interested in reviving the packs when lithium batteries are cheaper, better, and prolific.

klooney 5mo ago

Ford's hybrids come from the Toyota tree, although they've diverged. The new Honda hybrids are more like a generator + ev, which is also pretty interesting.

kube-system 5mo ago

Toyota’s system is good but I personally prefer series hybrids which have power delivery more like an EV.

IcyWindows 5mo ago
The video makes the argument that there is a lot of efficiency loss by converting to mechanical energy twice.
- kube-system 5mo ago
  In general, that is correct. But there are also efficiency losses by running the engine at higher speeds off-throttle, which is a weakness of the Toyota design. Hybrids run in many different modes of operation under a wide variety of load and speed conditions, and there are strengths and weaknesses to each.

dzonga 5mo ago

africa imports a lot of used Japanese vehicles as well - majority of vehicles on the road in RHD countries r ex-jap. I think - that's still a good thing though - as long as the used ex-jap hybrid vehicle can still save fuel. Chinese EVs n hybrids will probably make that less common as they're cheap enough.