3 ms·

>What makes Iran believe unilateral fees on subsea internet cables would be paid? Presumably because they will attempt to destroy them if the fees are not paid

>What makes Iran believe unilateral fees on subsea internet cables would be paid? Presumably because they will attempt to destroy them if the fees are not paid.

krunck 5mo ago
They're just trolling the US. But if the US attacks and Iran again and Iran feels that the cables are vital to US military interests, they might destroy them. They have a right to: The cables cross the territory of the sovereign Iranian state.
- DoctorOetker 5mo ago
  I wasn't talking about rights, but about the incentive of network operators worldwide to prevent one another from paying unilateral fees. Of all sectors to weigh attacking, the networking sector seems like the worst sector to attack: they are well networked and a whole alliance of lucrative entities around the world becomes your enemy if you start applying unilateral fees. Iran is in a vicious circle of generating self-fulfilling prophecies: persecution complex -> hostage politics -> more enemies -> persecution complex. They show leadership on almost no front, they are not credible on a world stage. Try and picture some kind of future version of the current regime in Iran becoming a bigger and bigger world player, how will they start addressing real problems, like global warming? They only have experience in making their problems also someone else's problem. Suppose they continue and eventually achieve nuclear power status, will they blackmail the trees in the amazon rain forest to do photosynthesis faster, or else?
- Ajedi32 5mo ago
  > The cables cross the territory of the sovereign Iranian state The strait is not and has never been Iran's sovereign territory. Or should the UAE and Oman start trying to charge fees to ships trying to cross the strait too?
  - toast0 5mo ago
    > The strait is not and has never been Iran's sovereign territory. About half of it is, yes? Wikipedia has a nice map [1] which shows the agreed-upon maritime boundaries and there's also some disputed islands where there's no agreed up on boundaries listed. Wikipedia isn't absolutely correct, but where a body of water separates two sovereign states, the territorial waters tend to meet around the middle, with specific definition by treaty. There's also a pretty detailed US state department report [2] on the boundaries in the Persian Gulf, Straight of Hormuz and Gulf of Oman that lines up with the wikipedia map by my eye. I'm not sure if the TeleGeography [3] maps are supposed to be representative of where the cables are laid or more of a general picture idea like a subway map. Anyway, looking at the two maps at the same time, it seems like at least some of those cables are in Iranian territorial waters. It would seem that, with care, new cables that don't land in Iran could be placed in the Persian Gulf and avoiding Iranian waters; although the Iranian waters in the Persian Gulf are quite a bit deeper, than waters on the other side; which is why the shipping lanes tend to be in Iranian waters. This reverses at the straight where the (depicted) lanes are in the deeper Omani waters. > Or should the UAE and Oman start trying to charge fees to ships trying to cross the strait too? Now seems like a good time to raise fees? Both countries have a chokepoint if Iran is going to play hardball. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Strait_of_hormuz_full.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Strait_o... [2] https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/LIS-94.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/LIS-94.pdf [3] https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ https://www.submarinecablemap.com/
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
    - dingaling 5mo ago
      Having failed to ratify UNCLOS, Iran is entitled to claim only 3nm of territorial water. That's international law, as it stands. Iran passed its own law in 2003 claiming 12nm. They can only assert that claim through violence.
      - toast0 5mo ago
ibejoeb 5mo ago
No snark: with what? Their navy?
- everdrive 5mo ago
  You destroy cables by trawling the ocean floor. I'm not sure how many trawlers were targeted, but perhaps they truly have no capability to carry out their threat.
  - ibejoeb 5mo ago
    Yup. Or submersibles or underwater demo crews. These things are not going to go unnoticed. That's a suicide mission, if the US even cares enough to intervene. I don't think those cables are particularly important. I mean, I guess Iranians are going to have to put up with extra latency...oh. Seriously, though, other regional powers that have something on the line will have to decide whether this is worth action.
- nullocator 5mo ago
  No snark: Why not? Unless you're saying that it doesn't exist or has been destroyed because the orange man or one of the alcoholics on the tiktok/foxnews proclaimed it to be true hundreds of times over the last two months?
  - ibejoeb 5mo ago
    Yes, I've been led to believe that Iran's navy has taken heavy losses, but I'm asking. Does Iran have this capability?
    - nullocator 5mo ago
      Until they exercise it I suspect we can't truly know. They have demonstrated that have reliable drone manufacturing and ballistic capabilities. Whether those include submersibles or munitions that can strike submerged targets is unclear. In terms of raw capabilities and ability to actually damage these cables as an entity. Yes they have them today, they don't need special naval craft for such an endeavor, you can drag a hook behind any vessel large enough for the conditions and damage the cables repeatedly. This has been happening in other parts of the globe for some time, with Russia using cargo ships, I believe. Other parties could try and prevent this, possibly with some success but it would either involve sinking those vessels at a distance (hope they're right about what those vessels are doing), or putting your own assets in danger of missile or drone strikes.

>What makes Iran believe unilateral fees on subsea internet cables would be paid? Presumably because they will attempt to destroy them if the fees are not paid.

krunck 5mo ago

They're just trolling the US. But if the US attacks and Iran again and Iran feels that the cables are vital to US military interests, they might destroy them. They have a right to: The cables cross the territory of the sovereign Iranian state.

DoctorOetker 5mo ago
I wasn't talking about rights, but about the incentive of network operators worldwide to prevent one another from paying unilateral fees. Of all sectors to weigh attacking, the networking sector seems like the worst sector to attack: they are well networked and a whole alliance of lucrative entities around the world becomes your enemy if you start applying unilateral fees. Iran is in a vicious circle of generating self-fulfilling prophecies: persecution complex -> hostage politics -> more enemies -> persecution complex. They show leadership on almost no front, they are not credible on a world stage. Try and picture some kind of future version of the current regime in Iran becoming a bigger and bigger world player, how will they start addressing real problems, like global warming? They only have experience in making their problems also someone else's problem. Suppose they continue and eventually achieve nuclear power status, will they blackmail the trees in the amazon rain forest to do photosynthesis faster, or else?
Ajedi32 5mo ago
> The cables cross the territory of the sovereign Iranian state The strait is not and has never been Iran's sovereign territory. Or should the UAE and Oman start trying to charge fees to ships trying to cross the strait too?
- toast0 5mo ago
  > The strait is not and has never been Iran's sovereign territory. About half of it is, yes? Wikipedia has a nice map [1] which shows the agreed-upon maritime boundaries and there's also some disputed islands where there's no agreed up on boundaries listed. Wikipedia isn't absolutely correct, but where a body of water separates two sovereign states, the territorial waters tend to meet around the middle, with specific definition by treaty. There's also a pretty detailed US state department report [2] on the boundaries in the Persian Gulf, Straight of Hormuz and Gulf of Oman that lines up with the wikipedia map by my eye. I'm not sure if the TeleGeography [3] maps are supposed to be representative of where the cables are laid or more of a general picture idea like a subway map. Anyway, looking at the two maps at the same time, it seems like at least some of those cables are in Iranian territorial waters. It would seem that, with care, new cables that don't land in Iran could be placed in the Persian Gulf and avoiding Iranian waters; although the Iranian waters in the Persian Gulf are quite a bit deeper, than waters on the other side; which is why the shipping lanes tend to be in Iranian waters. This reverses at the straight where the (depicted) lanes are in the deeper Omani waters. > Or should the UAE and Oman start trying to charge fees to ships trying to cross the strait too? Now seems like a good time to raise fees? Both countries have a chokepoint if Iran is going to play hardball. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Strait_of_hormuz_full.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Strait_o... [2] https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/LIS-94.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/LIS-94.pdf [3] https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ https://www.submarinecablemap.com/
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
  - dingaling 5mo ago
    Having failed to ratify UNCLOS, Iran is entitled to claim only 3nm of territorial water. That's international law, as it stands. Iran passed its own law in 2003 claiming 12nm. They can only assert that claim through violence.
    - toast0 5mo ago

ibejoeb 5mo ago

No snark: with what? Their navy?

everdrive 5mo ago
You destroy cables by trawling the ocean floor. I'm not sure how many trawlers were targeted, but perhaps they truly have no capability to carry out their threat.
- ibejoeb 5mo ago
  Yup. Or submersibles or underwater demo crews. These things are not going to go unnoticed. That's a suicide mission, if the US even cares enough to intervene. I don't think those cables are particularly important. I mean, I guess Iranians are going to have to put up with extra latency...oh. Seriously, though, other regional powers that have something on the line will have to decide whether this is worth action.
nullocator 5mo ago
No snark: Why not? Unless you're saying that it doesn't exist or has been destroyed because the orange man or one of the alcoholics on the tiktok/foxnews proclaimed it to be true hundreds of times over the last two months?
- ibejoeb 5mo ago
  Yes, I've been led to believe that Iran's navy has taken heavy losses, but I'm asking. Does Iran have this capability?
  - nullocator 5mo ago
    Until they exercise it I suspect we can't truly know. They have demonstrated that have reliable drone manufacturing and ballistic capabilities. Whether those include submersibles or munitions that can strike submerged targets is unclear. In terms of raw capabilities and ability to actually damage these cables as an entity. Yes they have them today, they don't need special naval craft for such an endeavor, you can drag a hook behind any vessel large enough for the conditions and damage the cables repeatedly. This has been happening in other parts of the globe for some time, with Russia using cargo ships, I believe. Other parties could try and prevent this, possibly with some success but it would either involve sinking those vessels at a distance (hope they're right about what those vessels are doing), or putting your own assets in danger of missile or drone strikes.