4 ms·

Seems like piracy is more about the land than the sea. I can't think of any major american military action against piracy aside from actions against somali terr

by asdff 5mo ago

Seems like piracy is more about the land than the sea. I can't think of any major american military action against piracy aside from actions against somali terrorists. Seems piracy as it was known historically died out as the old historic pirate havens of say Tortuga or Outer Banks went from places of anarchy to places that were controlled by some government in some capacity. And that is exactly where we see the somali piracy today: here is a state that is unable to govern its land mass and thus there is piracy, even with the american navy directly taking action against this piracy. Seemingly this has nothing to do with the american navy at all, even though that is supposedly one of its mandates and it takes actions in the spirit of advancing these anti piracy goals. The fundamentals of why piracy does and doesn't occur don't really change. It seems it comes down to government capacity on land, not from projecting naval power.

_DeadFred_ 5mo ago
I mean that is ignoring the American military experience with Islamic pirates and Islamic slavers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs
- asdff 5mo ago
  That also supports the government capacity argument. The US was able to make peace with the barbary states and extract a right of safe passage assurance from them. Why? Because the leadership of these states had enough government capacity to compel their domestic pirates into agreeing to the terms their government dictated. Today, in Somalia, we see what the lack of government capacity manifests as. I'm sure the government of Somalia does in fact have laws against piracy. The fact they aren't being enforced, and the pirate industry there exists, shows what happens when law and agreements meet the hard realities that there needs to be government capacity to see them enforced and heeded.
  - _DeadFred_ 5mo ago
    The Islamic governments there always had the capacity though contrary to your central point. As evidenced by the many treaties there were entered into by those governments, not by the Islamic pirates/slavers. From the writings at the time 'Muslim sources, however, sometimes refer to the "Islamic naval jihad"—casting the conflicts as part of a sacred mission of war under Allah' These Islamic pirate/slavers are the SPECIFIC pirates that "The Barbary threat led directly to the United States founding the United States Navy in March 1794.". These are the specific type of pirates that the US Navy was founded to combat to protect ships being seized and their crews sold into slavery.
    - asdff 5mo ago
      Of course it gets a little muddy when you consider the europeans also had state sponsored privateers. I would not consider state sponsored pirates like this to be the same as pirates who operated against the interests of basically all states and required a little corner of the earth free of anyone's control to operate. Kind of a different phenomenon with different incentives and funding structures and goals.
- throwaway27448 5mo ago
  Let us not confuse north africa with the horn of africa. Two wholly different people with different cultures, motivations, and practices.
throwaway27448 5mo ago
> somali terrorists Pirates are many things, maybe even criminals under international law, but terrorists they are certainly not.
- asdff 5mo ago
  Are they not commingled with Al Shabaab, Daesh, and the Houthis?
  - throwaway27448 5mo ago
    Sir do you just think all muslims are the same people? What else ties these groups together?
    - asdff 5mo ago
      No? I'm talking about who is sponsoring the somali pirates. I'm not connecting them to these groups. They are already connected to these groups in particular. I didn't just name three random terrorist organizations. These groups are all operating in somalia right now.
      - throwaway27448 5mo ago
        I'm not sure the extent to which either Daesh or Andar Allah are formally operating in Somalia, but I apologize if I cast unfair aspersions. I don't believe there are any formal or uniform or centralized funding of the pirates at all, though—many were simply fisherman who could no longer make a living. This is just my understanding however. I'm also open to the idea that the pirates aren't just from Somalia.
        asdff 5mo ago
        The level of ordinance is enough evidence that there is significant outside support. RPG-7s do not grow on trees in Somalia. I hazard to guess an RPG on the black market is also a great expense to anyone who isn't being given one by one of these groups connected to the arms trade in effort to advance their goals or position in some way.

by asdff 5mo ago

_DeadFred_ 5mo ago

I mean that is ignoring the American military experience with Islamic pirates and Islamic slavers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs

asdff 5mo ago
That also supports the government capacity argument. The US was able to make peace with the barbary states and extract a right of safe passage assurance from them. Why? Because the leadership of these states had enough government capacity to compel their domestic pirates into agreeing to the terms their government dictated. Today, in Somalia, we see what the lack of government capacity manifests as. I'm sure the government of Somalia does in fact have laws against piracy. The fact they aren't being enforced, and the pirate industry there exists, shows what happens when law and agreements meet the hard realities that there needs to be government capacity to see them enforced and heeded.
- _DeadFred_ 5mo ago
  The Islamic governments there always had the capacity though contrary to your central point. As evidenced by the many treaties there were entered into by those governments, not by the Islamic pirates/slavers. From the writings at the time 'Muslim sources, however, sometimes refer to the "Islamic naval jihad"—casting the conflicts as part of a sacred mission of war under Allah' These Islamic pirate/slavers are the SPECIFIC pirates that "The Barbary threat led directly to the United States founding the United States Navy in March 1794.". These are the specific type of pirates that the US Navy was founded to combat to protect ships being seized and their crews sold into slavery.
  - asdff 5mo ago
    Of course it gets a little muddy when you consider the europeans also had state sponsored privateers. I would not consider state sponsored pirates like this to be the same as pirates who operated against the interests of basically all states and required a little corner of the earth free of anyone's control to operate. Kind of a different phenomenon with different incentives and funding structures and goals.
throwaway27448 5mo ago
Let us not confuse north africa with the horn of africa. Two wholly different people with different cultures, motivations, and practices.

throwaway27448 5mo ago

> somali terrorists Pirates are many things, maybe even criminals under international law, but terrorists they are certainly not.

asdff 5mo ago
Are they not commingled with Al Shabaab, Daesh, and the Houthis?
- throwaway27448 5mo ago
  Sir do you just think all muslims are the same people? What else ties these groups together?
  - asdff 5mo ago
    No? I'm talking about who is sponsoring the somali pirates. I'm not connecting them to these groups. They are already connected to these groups in particular. I didn't just name three random terrorist organizations. These groups are all operating in somalia right now.
    - throwaway27448 5mo ago
      I'm not sure the extent to which either Daesh or Andar Allah are formally operating in Somalia, but I apologize if I cast unfair aspersions. I don't believe there are any formal or uniform or centralized funding of the pirates at all, though—many were simply fisherman who could no longer make a living. This is just my understanding however. I'm also open to the idea that the pirates aren't just from Somalia.
      - asdff 5mo ago
        The level of ordinance is enough evidence that there is significant outside support. RPG-7s do not grow on trees in Somalia. I hazard to guess an RPG on the black market is also a great expense to anyone who isn't being given one by one of these groups connected to the arms trade in effort to advance their goals or position in some way.