3 ms·

Too many comments are trying to overanalyze, or just show off their insightful cynicism. We do airshows because they are cool. Lots of us love airplanes. Hum

Too many comments are trying to overanalyze, or just show off their insightful cynicism. We do airshows because they are cool. Lots of us love airplanes. Humans do all kinds of activities for entertainment that are not strictly justifiable returns on investment. I hope we never get that boring, though every year we do seem to go that direction.

operatingthetan 5mo ago
No. They are for recruitment and showing other nations what is on hand in case they want to mess with them. >insightful cynicism. So in response you select the most naive take?
- lelandbatey 5mo ago
  Sure that's why the bean counters wrote the checks for them, but that's not the reason people attend. People attend because they are a spectacle.
- justin66 5mo ago
  They work for recruitment because... they're cool.
  - nearlyepic 5mo ago
    Sure, but the purpose is recruitment. They wouldn't do them if they didn't get anything out of them, and what they get out of them is PR and boosts to recruitment efforts.
    - serf 5mo ago
      Why do small regional non military equivalents exist then? People fly air shows with crop dusters.
    - therein 5mo ago
      I mean, also statistically, it is bound to inspire young people who potentially might be interested in picking an aviation related future. Maybe they will invent something they otherwise wouldn't have.
- BoorishBears 5mo ago
  I don't understand this comment. If you want to be the minimally charitable + maximally accurate commenter your tone suggests, then you're also wrong. It's a superset of the reasons you poorly articulated, and those reasons would include the fact it's cool. Cool things can help both recruitment and morale, and the US military seems to recognize that: https://armedforcessports.defense.gov/Sports/Esports/ https://armedforcessports.defense.gov/Sports/Esports/ If this is just meant to be another comment on the situation which comes with an implicit grain of salt, then the browbeating doesn't make sense.
  - operatingthetan 5mo ago
    Don't make things up or project based on your perception of tone.
    - BoorishBears 5mo ago
      It's not (just) my perception, most socially aware people would interpret the sign off: > So in response you select the most naive take? As well as your reply to me now, as having an unduly negative tone... at least, given the lack of substance or importance. (Ironically, I have less of hang up on meaningful arguments delivered with edge than most people.)
      - deleted 5mo ago
        [deleted]
      - bigyabai 5mo ago
        They're being rude, but right. Burying your head in the sand is not an intellectually gratifying response to barbazoo's comment, and the actual meat of their answer ("because they're cool") is obviously incorrect. Both are unprofessional comments, but only the original was dishonest. The "too many comments" shtick is a thought terminating cliche that shouldn't be encouraged on HN.
        BoorishBears 5mo ago
- kube-system 5mo ago
  Even the airshows that the military flies at are often primarily civilian shows. The military clearly has recruiting and power demonstration goals but airshows in general exist outside of those goals. The majority of the aviators at these shows are civilian hobbyists.
  - flomo 5mo ago
    Sure, but the Air Force bills all this kinda stuff to Recruiting (having worked in an adjacent area. I support a voluntary military.)
- NikolaNovak 5mo ago
  There are a LOT of air shows where military airplanes are a small or zero component. I'm totally in agreement that armed forces are there for reasons you described. But an "air show" is a massive and sometimes separate Venn diagram. There are air shows where main thing is thousands of private airplanes coming from across the country to be together and meet up and have fun. Put it other way, if armed forces decided it's not worth the recruitment investment and pulled out, air shows would still happen :). For most sizes air shows, the biplane aerobatic stunt done by a crazy local 50 year old real estate agent, is way more fun than the c5 galaxy transporter showing "short takeoff" :-)
  - mlyle 5mo ago
    Yah.. the roaring sound and precision of military aerial display teams can't be denied, and are an awesome experience. But it's something you see someone doing in a Pitts or Extra or maybe even a Citabria or 150 that makes you question your understanding of the laws of physics :D
    - ExoticPearTree 5mo ago
      It is not the same. Having a jet do a low pass is something that you will remember for a long time. Or having it go vertical with full after burners, especially close to sunset where you can see it better. The other factor is showing how good you are: sure, you can do formation flying in an Extra 300 or a C150, but doing it in a fighter jet show precission and skill, because it will not forgive you as easy as a slower moving plane.
      - mlyle 5mo ago
        > It is not the same. I have seen so many military display teams. Yes, I like the roar. But they blur together. > sure, you can do formation flying in an Extra 300 or a C150, But that's not what we watch Extra 330s do. We watch them do other things that are nuts that are also not so easily forgiven. I have fond memories of seeing Patty Wagstaff, Sean Tucker, and Rob Holland (rip). (And before that, Amelia Reid in her 150...)
      - 5mo ago
- fluidcruft 5mo ago
  I like air shows and there's no chance I'm enlisting. Maybe citizens like to see the cool toys they pay for actually do cool things other than seeing them parked in museums. Why do people go see rocket launches?
- cs02rm0 5mo ago
  >> We do airshows because they are cool. > No. They are for recruitment and showing other nations what is on hand in case they want to mess with them. That's what he said.
bigyabai 5mo ago
It's worth questioning what the costs are, though. I love military aviation more than the average Joe, and seeing these jets pushed to their limits is pretty gratifying. But this isn't a football/soccer pasttime, the E/A-18 is an expensive F/A-18 block and the aviators are an asset of national security that take decades of experience and millions of taxpayer dollars to train. The losses sustained by the Blue Angels alone is stomach-churning, and they're widely known as one of the most professional groups around: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and... The net benefit is marketing, and little else. As much as I enjoy watching airshow jet maneuvers, I have to acknowledge that the USSR only sent their Sukhoi pilots on-tour as a publicity stunt to increase their exports. Same goes for the US, France and China.
- 7952 5mo ago
  I guess aviation always has an element of risk and the real debate has to be around safety standards and training. A loss of aircraft, crew or worse people on the ground is never acceptable and seems to happen more than it should.
- umbra07 5mo ago
  >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and... 20 pilot deaths since 1946 (80 years ago), but only 2 pilot deaths since 2000 (25 years ago). I wouldn't really call that "stomach-churning losses"?
yepyoukno 5mo ago
I grew up in a time a whole lot more was spent on air shows. They do it because it’s awesome and it is one of the few opportunities they get to show off their gear to the public!
dweinus 5mo ago
[flagged]
- Rover222 5mo ago
  bla bla bla you don't have to choose between doing interesting stuff and fixing all problems.
- pibaker 5mo ago
  [flagged]
- jandrewrogers 5mo ago
  Where I live, any lack of a functional social safety net is a failure of execution, not a failure of funding.
- aeternum 5mo ago
  EA-18s are real, the things you speak of only exist in the imagination.
- dacops 5mo ago
  It's circuses. Bread and circuses, except we don't get the bread part. But some people really like circuses.
bulbar 5mo ago
I would say it's part of the US culture. It's not a thing in Europe (one reason might be practical reasons. We have less space to do it safely).
- __loam 5mo ago
  It has absolutely been a thing in Europe and there have been numerous accidents involving Russian and European aircraft at events like the Paris Airshow.
- kuerbel 5mo ago
  Of course we have airshows and dedicated teams for that. There are the patrouille Suisse, patrouille de France, Frecce Tricolori... After the Ramstein Air Base disaster security was tightened a lot though.
  - ExoticPearTree 5mo ago
    I’ve seen PdF perform, they are pretty impressive in the maneouvers they execute. It is worth mentuoning though they do all that in trainer jets, not actual fighter jets. Which is not that cool. I would loved it more of they would fly actual fighters.
    - baud147258 5mo ago
      > I would loved it more of they would fly actual fighters. For that I'd say it's that France is saving its actual fighters for combat units because it doesn't has enough jets, unlike the US
  - bulbar 5mo ago
    Never heard anybody mention them while in the US they seem to be common and well known. As well as private aviation has a different standing in the US in my experience. Saying "not a thing" might have been to absolute, but my impression is that flight shows are much more known and I would assume more common in the US.
- barnabee 5mo ago
zelos 5mo ago
Seeing and hearing the last remaining Avro Vulcan pull up over the chalk cliffs at Eastbourne a few years back is something I won't forget for a long time.
wartywhoa23 5mo ago
> Humans do all kinds of activities for entertainment that are not strictly justifiable returns on investment. Military propaganda absolutely is about strictly justifiable returns on investments.

operatingthetan 5mo ago

No. They are for recruitment and showing other nations what is on hand in case they want to mess with them. >insightful cynicism. So in response you select the most naive take?

lelandbatey 5mo ago
Sure that's why the bean counters wrote the checks for them, but that's not the reason people attend. People attend because they are a spectacle.
justin66 5mo ago
They work for recruitment because... they're cool.
- nearlyepic 5mo ago
  Sure, but the purpose is recruitment. They wouldn't do them if they didn't get anything out of them, and what they get out of them is PR and boosts to recruitment efforts.
  - serf 5mo ago
    Why do small regional non military equivalents exist then? People fly air shows with crop dusters.
  - therein 5mo ago
    I mean, also statistically, it is bound to inspire young people who potentially might be interested in picking an aviation related future. Maybe they will invent something they otherwise wouldn't have.
BoorishBears 5mo ago
I don't understand this comment. If you want to be the minimally charitable + maximally accurate commenter your tone suggests, then you're also wrong. It's a superset of the reasons you poorly articulated, and those reasons would include the fact it's cool. Cool things can help both recruitment and morale, and the US military seems to recognize that: https://armedforcessports.defense.gov/Sports/Esports/ https://armedforcessports.defense.gov/Sports/Esports/ If this is just meant to be another comment on the situation which comes with an implicit grain of salt, then the browbeating doesn't make sense.
- operatingthetan 5mo ago
  Don't make things up or project based on your perception of tone.
  - BoorishBears 5mo ago
    It's not (just) my perception, most socially aware people would interpret the sign off: > So in response you select the most naive take? As well as your reply to me now, as having an unduly negative tone... at least, given the lack of substance or importance. (Ironically, I have less of hang up on meaningful arguments delivered with edge than most people.)
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
    - bigyabai 5mo ago
      They're being rude, but right. Burying your head in the sand is not an intellectually gratifying response to barbazoo's comment, and the actual meat of their answer ("because they're cool") is obviously incorrect. Both are unprofessional comments, but only the original was dishonest. The "too many comments" shtick is a thought terminating cliche that shouldn't be encouraged on HN.
      - BoorishBears 5mo ago
kube-system 5mo ago
Even the airshows that the military flies at are often primarily civilian shows. The military clearly has recruiting and power demonstration goals but airshows in general exist outside of those goals. The majority of the aviators at these shows are civilian hobbyists.
- flomo 5mo ago
  Sure, but the Air Force bills all this kinda stuff to Recruiting (having worked in an adjacent area. I support a voluntary military.)
NikolaNovak 5mo ago
There are a LOT of air shows where military airplanes are a small or zero component. I'm totally in agreement that armed forces are there for reasons you described. But an "air show" is a massive and sometimes separate Venn diagram. There are air shows where main thing is thousands of private airplanes coming from across the country to be together and meet up and have fun. Put it other way, if armed forces decided it's not worth the recruitment investment and pulled out, air shows would still happen :). For most sizes air shows, the biplane aerobatic stunt done by a crazy local 50 year old real estate agent, is way more fun than the c5 galaxy transporter showing "short takeoff" :-)
- mlyle 5mo ago
  Yah.. the roaring sound and precision of military aerial display teams can't be denied, and are an awesome experience. But it's something you see someone doing in a Pitts or Extra or maybe even a Citabria or 150 that makes you question your understanding of the laws of physics :D
  - ExoticPearTree 5mo ago
    It is not the same. Having a jet do a low pass is something that you will remember for a long time. Or having it go vertical with full after burners, especially close to sunset where you can see it better. The other factor is showing how good you are: sure, you can do formation flying in an Extra 300 or a C150, but doing it in a fighter jet show precission and skill, because it will not forgive you as easy as a slower moving plane.
    - mlyle 5mo ago
      > It is not the same. I have seen so many military display teams. Yes, I like the roar. But they blur together. > sure, you can do formation flying in an Extra 300 or a C150, But that's not what we watch Extra 330s do. We watch them do other things that are nuts that are also not so easily forgiven. I have fond memories of seeing Patty Wagstaff, Sean Tucker, and Rob Holland (rip). (And before that, Amelia Reid in her 150...)
    - 5mo ago
fluidcruft 5mo ago
I like air shows and there's no chance I'm enlisting. Maybe citizens like to see the cool toys they pay for actually do cool things other than seeing them parked in museums. Why do people go see rocket launches?
cs02rm0 5mo ago
>> We do airshows because they are cool. > No. They are for recruitment and showing other nations what is on hand in case they want to mess with them. That's what he said.

bigyabai 5mo ago

It's worth questioning what the costs are, though. I love military aviation more than the average Joe, and seeing these jets pushed to their limits is pretty gratifying. But this isn't a football/soccer pasttime, the E/A-18 is an expensive F/A-18 block and the aviators are an asset of national security that take decades of experience and millions of taxpayer dollars to train. The losses sustained by the Blue Angels alone is stomach-churning, and they're widely known as one of the most professional groups around: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and... The net benefit is marketing, and little else. As much as I enjoy watching airshow jet maneuvers, I have to acknowledge that the USSR only sent their Sukhoi pilots on-tour as a publicity stunt to increase their exports. Same goes for the US, France and China.

7952 5mo ago
I guess aviation always has an element of risk and the real debate has to be around safety standards and training. A loss of aircraft, crew or worse people on the ground is never acceptable and seems to happen more than it should.
umbra07 5mo ago
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and... 20 pilot deaths since 1946 (80 years ago), but only 2 pilot deaths since 2000 (25 years ago). I wouldn't really call that "stomach-churning losses"?

yepyoukno 5mo ago

I grew up in a time a whole lot more was spent on air shows. They do it because it’s awesome and it is one of the few opportunities they get to show off their gear to the public!

dweinus 5mo ago

[flagged]

Rover222 5mo ago
bla bla bla you don't have to choose between doing interesting stuff and fixing all problems.
pibaker 5mo ago
[flagged]
jandrewrogers 5mo ago
Where I live, any lack of a functional social safety net is a failure of execution, not a failure of funding.
aeternum 5mo ago
EA-18s are real, the things you speak of only exist in the imagination.
dacops 5mo ago
It's circuses. Bread and circuses, except we don't get the bread part. But some people really like circuses.

bulbar 5mo ago

I would say it's part of the US culture. It's not a thing in Europe (one reason might be practical reasons. We have less space to do it safely).

__loam 5mo ago
It has absolutely been a thing in Europe and there have been numerous accidents involving Russian and European aircraft at events like the Paris Airshow.
kuerbel 5mo ago
Of course we have airshows and dedicated teams for that. There are the patrouille Suisse, patrouille de France, Frecce Tricolori... After the Ramstein Air Base disaster security was tightened a lot though.
- ExoticPearTree 5mo ago
  I’ve seen PdF perform, they are pretty impressive in the maneouvers they execute. It is worth mentuoning though they do all that in trainer jets, not actual fighter jets. Which is not that cool. I would loved it more of they would fly actual fighters.
  - baud147258 5mo ago
    > I would loved it more of they would fly actual fighters. For that I'd say it's that France is saving its actual fighters for combat units because it doesn't has enough jets, unlike the US
- bulbar 5mo ago
  Never heard anybody mention them while in the US they seem to be common and well known. As well as private aviation has a different standing in the US in my experience. Saying "not a thing" might have been to absolute, but my impression is that flight shows are much more known and I would assume more common in the US.
barnabee 5mo ago

zelos 5mo ago

Seeing and hearing the last remaining Avro Vulcan pull up over the chalk cliffs at Eastbourne a few years back is something I won't forget for a long time.

wartywhoa23 5mo ago

> Humans do all kinds of activities for entertainment that are not strictly justifiable returns on investment. Military propaganda absolutely is about strictly justifiable returns on investments.