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These are pretty expensive and specialized electronic warfare planes that are identical to a regular F18 in aerodynamic performance. Sucks to lose two of them f
by avalys 5mo ago
These are pretty expensive and specialized electronic warfare planes that are identical to a regular F18 in aerodynamic performance. Sucks to lose two of them for an airshow display. Isn’t that what the Blue Angels are for?
- barbazoo 5mo agoWhat is the real purpose of airshows anyway? It always seems like very elevated risk for very little reward but I might just be missing what the reward is.
- DonHopkins 5mo agoThe first rule of Flight Club is: you do not talk about Flight Club.
- npunt 5mo agoPublic relations for mil spending
- petcat 5mo agoAlso, air shows and flybys are awesome.
- stirfish 5mo agoFlybys are awesome depending where you are. F-18s in Idaho? Pretty cool. F-18s in Pakistan? Probably stressful.
- Atotalnoob 5mo agoIf combat zone flybys are anything like they are in the movie “warfare”, (excellent war movie, btw) stressful seems like an understatement. Awe inspiring and absolutely terrifying
- dudul 5mo agoEntertainment, education about avionic/technology/engineering, military PR and recruiting, boost local economy, etc. What's the purpose of motor sports? What's the purpose of a firework? What's the purpose of extreme sports exhibitions? mountain climbing expeditions?
- retired_account 5mo agoIf we view this through the lens of the “American civil religion“, these spectacles aren’t too unlike crowds of folks gathering to witness miracles.
- ericmay 5mo agoIt kind of is a miracle when you think about what goes in to creating those machines, maintaining them, and learning to fly them so well, of course crashes notwithstanding.
- retired_account 5mo agoAgreed, it's amazing they don't crash more often, given the complexity of it all.
- chilmers 5mo agoPresumably recruitment and PR for the air force, and morale for the aviators, as they can show off their training and skills to friends, family and the general public.
- zabzonk 5mo agoActing as a sales platform for aircraft manufacturers is also a thing. The RAF Red Arrows are probably responsible for a load of sales of the Hawk advanced trainer they use in their displays.
- streetfighter64 5mo agoPosturing, showing of your military capabilities towards the enemy. Raising morale (aka war propaganda) towards your own population. Contrary to popular belief, war is mostly about public opinion, not raw strength. Even since (before) roman times, you almost never fight to the last man, you fight until you route the enemy.
- Schiendelman 5mo agoI think the word you're looking for is "rout."
- streetfighter64 5mo agoThanks for your valuable contribution.
- userbinator 5mo agomilitary capabilities towards the enemy ...and unfortunately sometimes also military mistakes, but fortunately this doesn't happen often.
- ericmay 5mo agoCrashes are rare. Exposure to the civilian for what their tax dollars are paying for, opportunities for pilots to become more skilled and train other pilots for advanced maneuvers. Things like that. Overall there’s not too much meat on the bone as far as criticisms are concerned.
- Forgeties79 5mo agoYou can do advanced maneuvers without getting so close to another plane in some weird attempt at simulating a scenario that will never happen. Did some cursory searches/math and it looks like about 1-2% of aerial shows in the US have a fatality (1-2 deaths annually with about 2000 shows on average over the last 20 years). If those numbers are correct (and they may very well not be as it’s a mix of LLM and Google quick searches) 1-2% doesn’t seem worth it. Edit: I’m an idiot. .05-.1%. Seems a bit silly still but not as bad as I thought.
- bigfishrunning 5mo agoYou might want to double check that LLM... If theres 2000 shows and 1-2 deaths, that's 0.05%-0.1%. still too high, but given the simple math error I think the other numbers are probably suspect too Don't trust LLMs. They are bullshit machines.
- Forgeties79 5mo agoThat was my mistake with quick mental math tbh
- Schiendelman 5mo agoAlso I think most of the fatalities in aerial shows are civilian pilots. Control out every nonmilitary flight when considering the risk.
- rootusrootus 5mo ago> You can do advanced maneuvers without getting so close to another plane in some weird attempt at simulating a scenario that will never happen. That is likely true. However, it is a heck of a demonstration of pilot skill. The Blue Angels somewhat regularly post in-cockpit views of their airshow practice and it is wild how tight a formation they fly; I really recommend seeking out some of those videos, it is totally worth it. Well, for me at least :). It is not unheard of (but not common) for them to inadvertently make contact, since they fly like 18 inches apart, but given they have nearly identical vectors it does not often result in a crash.
- ElProlactin 5mo ago[flagged]
- mc3301 5mo agoI'm reminded of a short video clip I saw a while back with a dollar-counter on-screen. Different kinds of weapons were fired, each one bigger and more expensive than the last, the counter spinning upwards all-the-while. And here's me thinking: man, just don't shoot two or three of those anti-aircraft missiles, give the cash to me, and I could buy a house and live comfortably with my family.
- userbinator 5mo agoIf it weren't for the military, you might not have a country left to live in.
- ElProlactin 5mo agoThis is a strawman argument. One can acknowledge the necessity of having a military while at the same time questioning the magnitude of defense spending.
- rootusrootus 5mo agoHealthcare is expensive because we buy fancy airplanes? It seems at least as likely to do with the incredibly high salaries we pay doctors. And the fact that we use like 50% more healthcare services than a typical single-payer society.
- smcin 5mo agoWhat's your source for claiming "[the US] uses like 50% more healthcare services than a typical single-payer society"? Personal take-home pay for physicians is 8-10% of total US healthcare spending ($5tr). (or 20%/$1.11t for "physician and clinical services" overall which includes doctors, clinical staff, admin, and overhead costs.) US total spending on pharmaceuticals is $1 tr; net spending on outpatient prescription drugs is $600b. The DoD's total spending is $961.6b for FY 2026. There's little argument against reforming both military spending and healthcare spending in the US, but (as Scott Galloway says) it's awfully hard to find a prominent politician who vocally supports reforming both these (not one at the expense of the other). So, the out-of-control spending/borrowing will continue. Anyway, as to this crash, all other considerations apart, E/A-18Gs (electronic warfare planes) cost 60% more than F-18s. Who authorized flying them in an airshow?
- nsxwolf 5mo agoAll I know is I’m glad I don’t live in the world where this kind of reasoning dominates. All the greatest things I’ve seen in my life have been arguably pointless in this way.
- mpyne 5mo agoRecruiting for those considering careers, and marketing more broadly for those who pay taxes.
- rootusrootus 5mo agoToo many comments are trying to overanalyze, or just show off their insightful cynicism. We do airshows because they are cool. Lots of us love airplanes. Humans do all kinds of activities for entertainment that are not strictly justifiable returns on investment. I hope we never get that boring, though every year we do seem to go that direction.
- operatingthetan 5mo agoNo. They are for recruitment and showing other nations what is on hand in case they want to mess with them. >insightful cynicism. So in response you select the most naive take?
- lelandbatey 5mo agoSure that's why the bean counters wrote the checks for them, but that's not the reason people attend. People attend because they are a spectacle.
- justin66 5mo agoThey work for recruitment because... they're cool.
- nearlyepic 5mo agoSure, but the purpose is recruitment. They wouldn't do them if they didn't get anything out of them, and what they get out of them is PR and boosts to recruitment efforts.
- serf 5mo agoWhy do small regional non military equivalents exist then? People fly air shows with crop dusters.
- therein 5mo agoI mean, also statistically, it is bound to inspire young people who potentially might be interested in picking an aviation related future. Maybe they will invent something they otherwise wouldn't have.
- vkou 5mo agoThe purpose of airshows is to boost recruitment of cannon fodder for imperial conquests and to remind us that we are strong and the enemy is weak. Same reason as for military parades.
- mhh__ 5mo ago"Because it's there"
- Spooky23 5mo agoIt attracts talented people. I remember going to an air show when I was 12 with a good friend. Walking through the C-5 and then seeing a thunderbirds display just captured my friends imagination in a way that’s hard to describe. He ended up becoming a Marine Aviator and basically started planning that path that day.
- s5300 5mo ago[dead]
- the__alchemist 5mo agoThis is a question that comes up internally as well. It gets into questions like "Why do we fund the Thunderbirds etc". I will hold off on my 2c because the arguments are already covered! Immediately after a show like this, yes, it looks foolish to lose 2 combat planes and almost 4 aircrew for a performative event. Looking at it more generally, it's a tradeoff.
- NikolaNovak 5mo agoFor whom? For the audience - we love airplanes and love seeing them. I personally prefer the ground portion of air shows, where I can see and sometimes touch the airplanes up close, talk to the pilots and engineers, and generally have a nice day outside :). The aerial component is impressive too, depending on the show. Sometimes it's a bit drawn out. For the organizers, typically it's a mix of profit and also organizer enthusiasm - a LOT of air show is basically hard-working volunteers. For the participants, depends - the private entries are there for fun and visibility and showpersonship, cammarederie etc. The armed forces are there to promote and recruit and invoke patriotism and show off and impress. Ultimately though, if airplanes aren't your kink, you probably won't emotionally / internally understand and that's ok. It's like world rally championship or formula 1 or anything redbull does, a risky entertaining spectacle.
- cameronh90 5mo agoProbably just because it's cool. I'm sure there's some bean-counter calculus involving recruitment, PR, demonstration of capabilities, they were going to be doing training flights anyway so why not do a few in public, etc. but they're more rationalisations rather than reasons. I hope it stays that way too. A world where we take everything away unless it fits into the 5 year ROI spreadsheet sounds dreadful. In any case there'll a long tail of nth-order outcomes that we can't simply reduce down to a risk-reward calculation. There's probably some deep reason why humans just have a drive to show off their awesome stuff.
- russdill 5mo agoIt's a planned event at a specific time that requires training, planning, and coordination between multiple organizations.
- blueone 5mo agoFor recruitment, awareness, to boost civilian confidence/engagement/support in the military as a whole. The blue angels and thunderbirds are the best of the best when it comes to air shows because the best pilots are used and they train extensively.
- yard2010 5mo agoPlay stupid games, win stupid prizes
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- jterrys 5mo agoThis actually begs the question...why the fuck would they use THESE for an airshow? They're aesthetically identical to F18 from a ground silhouette perspective. They blew through some really expensive planes from a much smaller fleet for a pony show that any regular F18 could've been part of.
- kube-system 5mo agoThese were locally stationed, just over the border in Washington. The Blue Angels are in Florida today.
- mlyle 5mo agoYah.. but between the Iran war and this, we've taken some EW losses. And it's not like this is one of the capabilities that we have massively overprovisioned.
- joleyj 5mo agoThe Blue Angels are the Navy's demonstration team. This accident happened at an airshow on an Air Force base. The Air Force's demonstration team is named The Thunderbirds.
- kube-system 5mo agoI know. The question was about F18s, which the thunderbirds do not fly.
- jmward01 5mo agoThey do training all day every day in these planes. Air shows are probably less exciting than the stuff they practice to do. Also, while they a generically '18's' they are EA-18g's and possibly have enough differences to require maintaining a separate NATOPs check from the other variants. (never flown one so I don't actually know though :). Either way, other than the blue angles who can't be everywhere and don't represent the diversity of platforms out in the fleet, there really aren't dedicated airshow aircraft out there.
- jcgrillo 5mo agoIf the Internet is to be believed they're not actually more expensive than an F/A-18, and as far as military aircraft go.. not the most expensive. But a ~$150M accident is nothing to sneeze at.
- dboreham 5mo agoPerhaps the internet price excludes the EW payload? Seems like a plane with a load of electronics gear and transmitters/antennas would cost more than the same plane sans that stuff?
- ExoticPearTree 5mo agoI do not know the specifics, but I think most of the EW gear sits on pods attached to the pilons, not inside the actual plane. The only difference that I know of compared to a regular F18 is that it requires two crew members to operate.
- jandrewrogers 5mo agoYes, the EW gear is attached to the hardpoints. You can see in the video that it has not been installed for the airshow.
- jimohalloranau 5mo agoMost of the Growler "magic" is in pods carried on external hardpoints, but you couldn't just upload the EW pods onto a FA-18F Super Hornet and have a Growler. The cannon in the nose of a regular Hornet is replaced with computer hardware in the Growler. There are also aerodynamic changes to make it a little more stable so it's a better EW platform. There's probably a million other small differences too, enough that you wouldn't try to convert a -19F Super Hornet into a Growler (although the RAAF did think they'd try at one point).
- aaron695 5mo ago[dead]
- dboreham 5mo agoI'm not sure on the history of why there's a Growler display team, but they regularly perform at air shows, even air shows where the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds are also performing. Their display isn't formation aerobatics, more a sort of fancy fly-by. Air force, Navy and Marines have many display teams in addition to the two everyone knows. E.g. there's an F-35 display team and an F-22 display team. Usually they fly single though.
- tedggh 5mo agoIf the plan was to demo the Growlers team then calling the Blue Angels makes no sense, that’s a completely different team on completely different aircraft. You can still demo them with reduced risk like avoiding flying close profile.