6 ms·

As a European I want mistral and EU to do well. But at the same time, I wouldn’t actually give up my well paid engineering job outside of EU to even entertain w

As a European I want mistral and EU to do well. But at the same time, I wouldn’t actually give up my well paid engineering job outside of EU to even entertain working for them in EU. Too low salaries and too high taxes.

scirob 5mo ago
I wonder why googles biggest European office is in the low tax high salary country of Switzerland
- basicoperation 5mo ago
  Zurich is third behind Dublin (definitely for tax reasons) and London.
- hobofan 5mo ago
  That's the biggest engineering office, but not the biggest overall European Google office, right? That would be in low tax low salary Ireland.
  - disgruntledphd2 5mo ago
    > low tax low salary Ireland. Ireland is neither of those, fwiw. I get pretty decent money here, and pay a marginal rate of 52% on everything over 80k.
jstummbillig 5mo ago
How do you divorce being a European principally from being willing to pay taxes? What part of being uniquely European do you value that does not fundamentally require taxes?
- trinix912 5mo ago
  So just because someone is born in Europe they should automatically believe that the taxation system is flawless and salaries sufficient?
  - jstummbillig 5mo ago
    No
    - teekert 5mo ago
      No but to come to Europa, you get less differences in wealth (essentially) universal healthcare at low/reasonable cost (ie, I can get cancer and not feel it financially), and a lot of state support when you're out of a job. Etc. Thos things cost tax money.
      - logicchains 5mo ago
        >you get less differences in wealth Yes so if you were in the higher percentiles of wealth, like many engineers in the US, you'd end up with less wealth in Europe, while if you were in the lower percentiles then in Europe you'd end up with more wealth. That's how redistribution works, the top 10% of income earners end up with less (even after accounting for healthcare and education; they get back less then they put in), and US software engineers are in the top 10% of income earners.
        collingreen 5mo ago
        Getting less benefit than a lower bracket isn't the same as getting less than you put in and conflating them is misleading or, if intentional, deceitful.
        BrandoElFollito 5mo ago
        Could these software engineers be bankrupt if they are hit by a serious illness? Say progressive MS or a cancer, which will require extensive sick days? It is there protection? (this is an actual question, not an ironic one)
        ciupicri 5mo ago
        She's not a software engineer, just married to one and worked for software companies, and maybe I don't remember correctly, but she described a bit of her experience with the American system [1]: > I should have taken medical leave at the first surgery, but my manager was confused about our status – the acquisition was so recent that I didn’t have six months as an Oracle employee, and she said, “You’re not eligible to take paid leave.” > I couldn’t afford to take unpaid leave, and I was afraid I would lose my job and my health insurance, so I had to power on and pretend I was okay while I was really sick and taking an antibiotic that had horrible side effects. > ... [1] https://techiesproject.com/deirdre-straughan/ https://techiesproject.com/deirdre-straughan/
- stavros 5mo ago
  I have to say, I visited Zurich once, and everything was clean, organized, civilized, and pretty. Friends told me taxes are high but you get great education, great healthcare, decent disposable income, and good transportation. If you get laid off, the state continues paying your previous salary for one (two?) years. If everything is taken care of me from taxes, why do I need money? Take it all.
  - teekert 5mo ago
    FWIW Zurich feels like that to me too, and I'm from the Netherlands :)
  - amunozo 5mo ago
    Well, Zurich is everything but representative of Europe. Switzerland has much lower taxes and higher salaries than the rest of Europe.
    - gamblor956 5mo ago
      Switzerland has about the same taxes as most of Europe, but the taxes are spread between federal, cantonal, and municipal taxes. The combined marginal rate in Switzerland can reach 45%. Switzerland also has a wealth tax. TLDR: Switzerland is not the low-tax fantasy wonderland many people believe it to be.
      - vintermann 5mo ago
        Ok, but then why are Scandinavian billionaires emigrating to Switzerland? Personal wealth above ca. $215000 (with primary residence counted at 25% of its market value, and debt subtracted) is taxed at 1% in Norway, rising to 1.1% above $2.2 million. Presumably whatever wealth tax Switzerland has is lower than that?
        disgruntledphd2 5mo ago
        I believe that there are some Swiss regional authorities (called cantons, I believe) that have lower taxes. This may be where people are moving to.
- rdm_blackhole 5mo ago
  Not OP but to respond to your question, like everything, there is a scale to this question. Would you give to the state 30% of your income to pay for public services? Most people would say yes. What about 40%? 50%? Most people agree that taxes need to be paid for the common good of society. However, many people disagree about the correct amount and increasingly about the usage of said taxes. That is the real problem in my opinion.
  - kuschku 5mo ago
    > Would you give to the state 30% of your income to pay for public services? Most people would say yes. What about 40%? 50%? I pay about 6% for public services, around 8% for health insurance, and around 25% for the public pension insurance. The issue isn't taxes, it's almost entirely demographics.
- radicalbyte 5mo ago
  The problem with taxes in Europe are that the ultra-wealthy don't pay them. That burden is particularly focused on those who are high wage earners. If I look at my own country, as a high earner I'm paying close to a 50% effective tax rate (a little less with mortgage interest deductions). However the billionaire families who own the beer brewers, shipping companies and agraculture companies are paying well under 0.5% effective. They pay less than in the US. Due to this reason we're one of the most infamous tax dodge countries in Europe, apparently the Swedish and German billionaires have tax residency to avoid paying it.
  - no-name-here 5mo ago
    Effective tax rates for European ultra rich seem to be ~50x that from my googling. Is there a source for the “well under 0.5% effective”? Perhaps you’re thinking of wealth taxes rather than effective tax rates? https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/effectivetaxrate.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/effectivetaxrate.asp
    - tmikaeld 5mo ago
      He is, the rich pay normal tax and in Sweden (~52-55% effective), includes extra tax on high income. Even dividend tax is 30%
      - Gud 5mo ago
        Rich don’t have income, they have wealth. And the oligarchs in Sweden pay very little taxes.
        no-name-here 5mo ago
        > Rich don't have income Wouldn't rich people still have dividends, interest, and possibly executive compensation and capital gains? And if, for example, their money is in a business, that business would be paying all taxes as well, both resulting in tax revenue, and less for the investor? Or is there a source that they don’t have income? > oligarchs in Sweden pay very little taxes How are you quantifying that claim? From what I can find, the top 1% pay 10-15% of Sweden’s total tax revenue, presumably a far larger share than any other similarly sized group? Or what's the quantification you're using?
- danielfoster 5mo ago
  Not every EU country has a high tax burden. Rates are generally much fairer in Eastern Europe and the Baltics. So I wouldn’t say high taxes are fundamentally European.
tlogan 5mo ago
But working in UE gives you much stronger job protection. So, in a way, you get what you pay for.
- rdm_blackhole 5mo ago
  But that is a the problem though. You get stronger job protection because its very hard to find a job. If you could find a new job quickly and if the job market was more fluid, you would only rarely need this sort of job protection.
  - fatuna 5mo ago
    Compared to what I have heard about the US, I'd say it is actually easier to find jobs in (at least Western) Europe. Plenty of jobs, and a way easier interview process. Not 8 rounds of interviews and months of waiting (that I've heard of). But maybe two rounds in the same week and start the next month (if you want).
  - verzali 5mo ago
    I have never struggled to find a new job quickly in Europe.
- Insanity 5mo ago
  This is a fair point to be honest. But I about 4x’d my take-home salary and get to work on more cutting edge tech, with more impact than in EU. I did work on some cool medical device and ML tech back in EU, associated with a university and later a start up. But regulation became a PITA.
giacomoforte 5mo ago
I would become a patriotic European too, but only after our leaders at the national and EU level stop being transatlanticist sellouts... which won't happen any time soon.
- collingreen 5mo ago
  What's a "transatlanticist sellout"?
insane_dreamer 5mo ago
you get much more for your taxes than in the US though
- Insanity 5mo ago
  True, I agree. But it does suck working in tech on a “medium” salary when your overseas colleagues do the same work and earn much more. What I probably miss the most about EU (apart from family) is good food.
  - insane_dreamer 5mo ago
    earning more is relative to your COL
  - spauldo 5mo ago
    I had the opposite food experience in the EU, but I'll admit my experience is mostly Spain. In the US there's usually a good variety of food from all different cultures available. When I spent two months in Spain, I got really, really tired of the same three seasonings the Spanish put on everything. I craved Mexican food like crazy the whole time. Spanish food is great, don't get me wrong - I wish we had it here in the sticks where I live - but I'm used to a bit more variety.
poisonborz 5mo ago
This is a pervasive misconception in the industry, and a very dull trope on HN. Your income tax makes it possible to create a livable society in the EU. You get much more free time and are protected from a lot of random life events, even if you work in a McDonalds counter and not as a software engineer. You have rent, healthcare, protection from landlords. Not perfect, but at least the direction is there. Solely profit-optimizing free market thinking destroys society and the planet.
- 627467 5mo ago
  [flagged]
- marcuschong 5mo ago
  Plus, even if you do prefer the American way (and I could see why), it seems fanatic for people to not recognize the clear benefits of the European model.
  - classified 5mo ago
    > ...it seems fanatic... More like brainwashed. The propaganda for the American Way of Life™ is relentless.
- pllbnk 5mo ago
  The main brunt of the taxes in percentage terms still falls on the regular employees. Companies and wealthy individuals find ways to avoid them same as everywhere else, hence the feeling of injustice.
verzali 5mo ago
Move to Luxembourg then.
benterix 5mo ago
I'm very happy to pay high taxes in Europe, and enjoy everything that they bring.

scirob 5mo ago

I wonder why googles biggest European office is in the low tax high salary country of Switzerland

basicoperation 5mo ago
Zurich is third behind Dublin (definitely for tax reasons) and London.
hobofan 5mo ago
That's the biggest engineering office, but not the biggest overall European Google office, right? That would be in low tax low salary Ireland.
- disgruntledphd2 5mo ago
  > low tax low salary Ireland. Ireland is neither of those, fwiw. I get pretty decent money here, and pay a marginal rate of 52% on everything over 80k.

jstummbillig 5mo ago

How do you divorce being a European principally from being willing to pay taxes? What part of being uniquely European do you value that does not fundamentally require taxes?

trinix912 5mo ago
So just because someone is born in Europe they should automatically believe that the taxation system is flawless and salaries sufficient?
- jstummbillig 5mo ago
  No
  - teekert 5mo ago
    No but to come to Europa, you get less differences in wealth (essentially) universal healthcare at low/reasonable cost (ie, I can get cancer and not feel it financially), and a lot of state support when you're out of a job. Etc. Thos things cost tax money.
    - logicchains 5mo ago
      >you get less differences in wealth Yes so if you were in the higher percentiles of wealth, like many engineers in the US, you'd end up with less wealth in Europe, while if you were in the lower percentiles then in Europe you'd end up with more wealth. That's how redistribution works, the top 10% of income earners end up with less (even after accounting for healthcare and education; they get back less then they put in), and US software engineers are in the top 10% of income earners.
      - collingreen 5mo ago
        Getting less benefit than a lower bracket isn't the same as getting less than you put in and conflating them is misleading or, if intentional, deceitful.
      - BrandoElFollito 5mo ago
        Could these software engineers be bankrupt if they are hit by a serious illness? Say progressive MS or a cancer, which will require extensive sick days? It is there protection? (this is an actual question, not an ironic one)
        ciupicri 5mo ago
        She's not a software engineer, just married to one and worked for software companies, and maybe I don't remember correctly, but she described a bit of her experience with the American system [1]: > I should have taken medical leave at the first surgery, but my manager was confused about our status – the acquisition was so recent that I didn’t have six months as an Oracle employee, and she said, “You’re not eligible to take paid leave.” > I couldn’t afford to take unpaid leave, and I was afraid I would lose my job and my health insurance, so I had to power on and pretend I was okay while I was really sick and taking an antibiotic that had horrible side effects. > ... [1] https://techiesproject.com/deirdre-straughan/ https://techiesproject.com/deirdre-straughan/
stavros 5mo ago
I have to say, I visited Zurich once, and everything was clean, organized, civilized, and pretty. Friends told me taxes are high but you get great education, great healthcare, decent disposable income, and good transportation. If you get laid off, the state continues paying your previous salary for one (two?) years. If everything is taken care of me from taxes, why do I need money? Take it all.
- teekert 5mo ago
  FWIW Zurich feels like that to me too, and I'm from the Netherlands :)
- amunozo 5mo ago
  Well, Zurich is everything but representative of Europe. Switzerland has much lower taxes and higher salaries than the rest of Europe.
  - gamblor956 5mo ago
    Switzerland has about the same taxes as most of Europe, but the taxes are spread between federal, cantonal, and municipal taxes. The combined marginal rate in Switzerland can reach 45%. Switzerland also has a wealth tax. TLDR: Switzerland is not the low-tax fantasy wonderland many people believe it to be.
    - vintermann 5mo ago
      Ok, but then why are Scandinavian billionaires emigrating to Switzerland? Personal wealth above ca. $215000 (with primary residence counted at 25% of its market value, and debt subtracted) is taxed at 1% in Norway, rising to 1.1% above $2.2 million. Presumably whatever wealth tax Switzerland has is lower than that?
      - disgruntledphd2 5mo ago
        I believe that there are some Swiss regional authorities (called cantons, I believe) that have lower taxes. This may be where people are moving to.
rdm_blackhole 5mo ago
Not OP but to respond to your question, like everything, there is a scale to this question. Would you give to the state 30% of your income to pay for public services? Most people would say yes. What about 40%? 50%? Most people agree that taxes need to be paid for the common good of society. However, many people disagree about the correct amount and increasingly about the usage of said taxes. That is the real problem in my opinion.
- kuschku 5mo ago
  > Would you give to the state 30% of your income to pay for public services? Most people would say yes. What about 40%? 50%? I pay about 6% for public services, around 8% for health insurance, and around 25% for the public pension insurance. The issue isn't taxes, it's almost entirely demographics.
radicalbyte 5mo ago
The problem with taxes in Europe are that the ultra-wealthy don't pay them. That burden is particularly focused on those who are high wage earners. If I look at my own country, as a high earner I'm paying close to a 50% effective tax rate (a little less with mortgage interest deductions). However the billionaire families who own the beer brewers, shipping companies and agraculture companies are paying well under 0.5% effective. They pay less than in the US. Due to this reason we're one of the most infamous tax dodge countries in Europe, apparently the Swedish and German billionaires have tax residency to avoid paying it.
- no-name-here 5mo ago
  Effective tax rates for European ultra rich seem to be ~50x that from my googling. Is there a source for the “well under 0.5% effective”? Perhaps you’re thinking of wealth taxes rather than effective tax rates? https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/effectivetaxrate.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/effectivetaxrate.asp
  - tmikaeld 5mo ago
    He is, the rich pay normal tax and in Sweden (~52-55% effective), includes extra tax on high income. Even dividend tax is 30%
    - Gud 5mo ago
      Rich don’t have income, they have wealth. And the oligarchs in Sweden pay very little taxes.
      - no-name-here 5mo ago
        > Rich don't have income Wouldn't rich people still have dividends, interest, and possibly executive compensation and capital gains? And if, for example, their money is in a business, that business would be paying all taxes as well, both resulting in tax revenue, and less for the investor? Or is there a source that they don’t have income? > oligarchs in Sweden pay very little taxes How are you quantifying that claim? From what I can find, the top 1% pay 10-15% of Sweden’s total tax revenue, presumably a far larger share than any other similarly sized group? Or what's the quantification you're using?
danielfoster 5mo ago
Not every EU country has a high tax burden. Rates are generally much fairer in Eastern Europe and the Baltics. So I wouldn’t say high taxes are fundamentally European.

tlogan 5mo ago

But working in UE gives you much stronger job protection. So, in a way, you get what you pay for.

rdm_blackhole 5mo ago
But that is a the problem though. You get stronger job protection because its very hard to find a job. If you could find a new job quickly and if the job market was more fluid, you would only rarely need this sort of job protection.
- fatuna 5mo ago
  Compared to what I have heard about the US, I'd say it is actually easier to find jobs in (at least Western) Europe. Plenty of jobs, and a way easier interview process. Not 8 rounds of interviews and months of waiting (that I've heard of). But maybe two rounds in the same week and start the next month (if you want).
- verzali 5mo ago
  I have never struggled to find a new job quickly in Europe.
Insanity 5mo ago
This is a fair point to be honest. But I about 4x’d my take-home salary and get to work on more cutting edge tech, with more impact than in EU. I did work on some cool medical device and ML tech back in EU, associated with a university and later a start up. But regulation became a PITA.

giacomoforte 5mo ago

I would become a patriotic European too, but only after our leaders at the national and EU level stop being transatlanticist sellouts... which won't happen any time soon.

collingreen 5mo ago
What's a "transatlanticist sellout"?

insane_dreamer 5mo ago

you get much more for your taxes than in the US though

Insanity 5mo ago
True, I agree. But it does suck working in tech on a “medium” salary when your overseas colleagues do the same work and earn much more. What I probably miss the most about EU (apart from family) is good food.
- insane_dreamer 5mo ago
  earning more is relative to your COL
- spauldo 5mo ago
  I had the opposite food experience in the EU, but I'll admit my experience is mostly Spain. In the US there's usually a good variety of food from all different cultures available. When I spent two months in Spain, I got really, really tired of the same three seasonings the Spanish put on everything. I craved Mexican food like crazy the whole time. Spanish food is great, don't get me wrong - I wish we had it here in the sticks where I live - but I'm used to a bit more variety.

poisonborz 5mo ago

This is a pervasive misconception in the industry, and a very dull trope on HN. Your income tax makes it possible to create a livable society in the EU. You get much more free time and are protected from a lot of random life events, even if you work in a McDonalds counter and not as a software engineer. You have rent, healthcare, protection from landlords. Not perfect, but at least the direction is there. Solely profit-optimizing free market thinking destroys society and the planet.

627467 5mo ago
[flagged]
marcuschong 5mo ago
Plus, even if you do prefer the American way (and I could see why), it seems fanatic for people to not recognize the clear benefits of the European model.
- classified 5mo ago
  > ...it seems fanatic... More like brainwashed. The propaganda for the American Way of Life™ is relentless.
pllbnk 5mo ago
The main brunt of the taxes in percentage terms still falls on the regular employees. Companies and wealthy individuals find ways to avoid them same as everywhere else, hence the feeling of injustice.

verzali 5mo ago

Move to Luxembourg then.

benterix 5mo ago

I'm very happy to pay high taxes in Europe, and enjoy everything that they bring.