4 ms·

How many steps removed do you draw the line? Obviously, it's one thing to be a commander ordering an attack, vs a soldier firing the weapon, vs starting the co

by csallen 5mo ago

How many steps removed do you draw the line? Obviously, it's one thing to be a commander ordering an attack, vs a soldier firing the weapon, vs starting the company to make the weapon, vs being a supplier to the weapons company, vs being an employee at the manufacturer, etc. What about working for a president who is going to inevitably order hundreds if not thousands murdered? Or voting for said president? What about paying taxes, knowing those tax dollars will go to missiles and guns used to murder? (This isn't a criticism of your worldview, by the way. I'm just genuinely curious about how others draw these lines.)

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
karim79 5mo ago
Working on "killy" stuff is bad. That's my whole point. I is l stupid and counterproductive to what we as humanity are supposed to be doing.
- junofan 5mo ago
  Do you like abortion?
  - karim79 5mo ago
    This is insane and irrelevant. A whole other discussion which does not belong in the the same light as, let's call it "coding and engineering practices designed to kill people" under the guise of "defending democracies" as if there are any such democracies currently under threat.
  - Erem 5mo ago
    What interesting discussion could the answer to this question yield? People who view abortion as “killy” will possibly take GPs stance toward their family and peers. People who don’t won’t. And anyways, nobody _likes_ abortion, even if they are committed to it being a woman’s right
- camhart 5mo ago
  You realize what happens if we dont have killy stuff right? We get killed.
  - karim79 5mo ago
    Who is "we"? Who is the boogyman and who are the potential victims?
    - fooker 5mo ago
      That's the beauty of it, it doesn't matter who the boogeyman is and who the victim is. Would you tell Palestinians to stop working on 'killy stuff' for moral/ethical reasons?
      - tmnvix 5mo ago
        No. But I would tell anyone involved in a genocide to. In my opinion that now includes the US and UK. Others will have different opinions, obviously, but this is mine.
        fooker 5mo ago
        Great, that is not an uncommon stance. Respectable in my opinion. Now, cutting friends and family off over something this just means you do not want to tolerate people with differing views and opinions on this. It's more about the side you are on rather than some abstract moral argument against working for companies tangentially related to the defense sector.
        karim79 5mo ago
        "defense" sector. Listen to yourself.
        fooker 5mo ago
        Yes, that’s how language works. But feel free to petition literally all countries to remove words like defense or security from the names of their militaries.
Retr0id 5mo ago
I'm not GP but I could've written a similar comment. Personally I don't draw the line based on "proximity to war", but on the choices being made. I think poorly of someone who freely chooses "job directly contributing to war" over "job mostly unrelated to war".
tamimio 5mo ago
The line is simple, do you have the choice (personally or influentially) to avoid that? If yes, you draw the line. Can you avoid paying taxes? No, can you influence not to be used as you mentioned? You try. Can you avoid a job that obviously will use your expertise in questionable ways? Yes. The right and wrong is clear, people who try to muddy it they just seek justification. I personally turned down multiple offers/work when it comes to drones for example, I designed stuff back in 2020 that some companies now just knew about it and its potentials, but when you meet with them and discuss what they are trying to build, you know that whatever they are after can be used in bad faith if the company decided to do so, do you sell your soul for the cash or do you prefer to sleep well at night? The only exception is whatever you built has no direct or obvious bad faith, you build a library, a gstreamer addon, etc., that can get a pass.
- bulbar 5mo ago
  > Can you avoid paying taxes? No Of course you can. It's just inconvenient. You could leave the country, break the law or stop getting a taxable income. It's not that "playing along" isn't a choice. It's just an easy one. If the CEO of your company changes and turns out to do evil things with the company and the product of your work, would you switch the company? If the President of your country changes and turns out to do evil things with the country and your taxes, would you switch the country? The line you draw is always the one of the level of convenience you are targeting for yourself. Not saying there is no point having a line, but it's highly subjective.
  - tamimio 5mo ago
    > You could leave the country Not if you are a US citizen, you pay taxes even if you’re living abroad. And yes I would switch companies, it’s exactly what I did before, and I will do it again. I can’t switch countries and I don’t think it’s effective like switching companies, but there are other means if your president or PM turned things evil, from pressuring your MP/senator to campaigning against to others. You never succumb to evil things no matter what.
    - 5mo ago

by csallen 5mo ago

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

karim79 5mo ago

Working on "killy" stuff is bad. That's my whole point. I is l stupid and counterproductive to what we as humanity are supposed to be doing.

junofan 5mo ago
Do you like abortion?
- karim79 5mo ago
  This is insane and irrelevant. A whole other discussion which does not belong in the the same light as, let's call it "coding and engineering practices designed to kill people" under the guise of "defending democracies" as if there are any such democracies currently under threat.
- Erem 5mo ago
  What interesting discussion could the answer to this question yield? People who view abortion as “killy” will possibly take GPs stance toward their family and peers. People who don’t won’t. And anyways, nobody _likes_ abortion, even if they are committed to it being a woman’s right
camhart 5mo ago
You realize what happens if we dont have killy stuff right? We get killed.
- karim79 5mo ago
  Who is "we"? Who is the boogyman and who are the potential victims?
  - fooker 5mo ago
    That's the beauty of it, it doesn't matter who the boogeyman is and who the victim is. Would you tell Palestinians to stop working on 'killy stuff' for moral/ethical reasons?
    - tmnvix 5mo ago
      No. But I would tell anyone involved in a genocide to. In my opinion that now includes the US and UK. Others will have different opinions, obviously, but this is mine.
      - fooker 5mo ago
        Great, that is not an uncommon stance. Respectable in my opinion. Now, cutting friends and family off over something this just means you do not want to tolerate people with differing views and opinions on this. It's more about the side you are on rather than some abstract moral argument against working for companies tangentially related to the defense sector.
        karim79 5mo ago
        "defense" sector. Listen to yourself.
        fooker 5mo ago
        Yes, that’s how language works. But feel free to petition literally all countries to remove words like defense or security from the names of their militaries.

Retr0id 5mo ago

I'm not GP but I could've written a similar comment. Personally I don't draw the line based on "proximity to war", but on the choices being made. I think poorly of someone who freely chooses "job directly contributing to war" over "job mostly unrelated to war".

tamimio 5mo ago

The line is simple, do you have the choice (personally or influentially) to avoid that? If yes, you draw the line. Can you avoid paying taxes? No, can you influence not to be used as you mentioned? You try. Can you avoid a job that obviously will use your expertise in questionable ways? Yes. The right and wrong is clear, people who try to muddy it they just seek justification. I personally turned down multiple offers/work when it comes to drones for example, I designed stuff back in 2020 that some companies now just knew about it and its potentials, but when you meet with them and discuss what they are trying to build, you know that whatever they are after can be used in bad faith if the company decided to do so, do you sell your soul for the cash or do you prefer to sleep well at night? The only exception is whatever you built has no direct or obvious bad faith, you build a library, a gstreamer addon, etc., that can get a pass.

bulbar 5mo ago
> Can you avoid paying taxes? No Of course you can. It's just inconvenient. You could leave the country, break the law or stop getting a taxable income. It's not that "playing along" isn't a choice. It's just an easy one. If the CEO of your company changes and turns out to do evil things with the company and the product of your work, would you switch the company? If the President of your country changes and turns out to do evil things with the country and your taxes, would you switch the country? The line you draw is always the one of the level of convenience you are targeting for yourself. Not saying there is no point having a line, but it's highly subjective.
- tamimio 5mo ago
  > You could leave the country Not if you are a US citizen, you pay taxes even if you’re living abroad. And yes I would switch companies, it’s exactly what I did before, and I will do it again. I can’t switch countries and I don’t think it’s effective like switching companies, but there are other means if your president or PM turned things evil, from pressuring your MP/senator to campaigning against to others. You never succumb to evil things no matter what.
  - 5mo ago