6 ms·

"We will examine this movement by looking at Toronto, the only city in Canada"

armanj 5mo ago
I'm in Toronto and I can confirm.
skeeter2020 5mo ago
If Canada historically has a complex around his relative relationship to the USA, the same holds outside of central Canada, maybe with the exception of pockets that punch above their weight in terms of representation (like PEI). This is both funny (TSN: Toronto Sports Network) and concerning (current AB and SK alienation). Personally I'm first a Canadian and second a proud Albertan, and find it maddening that like the British Empire treated it colony Canada, so does the country treats us, and the resulting brinksmanship is scary & dangerous.
- cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
  I dunno man. I grew up in Edmonton area and didn't much care about whatever in central Canada, and only had a vague sense of it despite having done a trip across Canada with the family when I was 8. Of course "western alienation" talk was all around from right wing sorts but my family paid no attention to it anyways. Then I moved to Toronto in 1996 in the .com boom. I had spent plenty of time in Vancouver but living in Toronto was night and day in terms of vibrancy, culture, activity, economy. Toronto was a real living city and even Vancouver didn't compare. TLDR there's a reason why the country is in part Toronto centric. There's just a lot going on there. A lot of people, a lot of money, and a lot of culture. In the 90s especially it really was "downtown Canada." That would have been even more so in the period this article is talking about. It has nothing to do with Toronto people thinking they're superior, it has to do with the fact that this is the 3rd or 4th (depending how you count it) largest city in North America and nothing else in Canada even comes close. I have lived both sides and most of my family is still in Alberta. The persecution complex out there is 100% bullshit. Nobody in reality is treating Alberta badly. It actually gets a remarkably good deal in confederation -- selling oil and gas to the rest of the country. Hydrocarbons aren't the centre of existence. Even after all these years of neglect and downgrading the manufacturing economies of central Canada are still a massive part of the GDP of the country, and the industrial policies that apply for them are not necessarily the same as for energy or forestry exports and that needs to be recognized. Not to mention that this part of the world is where the bulk of the population still is. Yet I hear people in Alberta routinely talk about how they're somehow holding the whole country up. It's not factually correct. Not even close, unless you play wilful distortion of how equalization works. Also, we are some of the the biggest customers of Alberta, Line 9 runs right behind my farm. 90% of the oil used here in Ontario is purchased via that line from Alberta, pumped from Edmonton. I also fail to see recognition of this from many pundits in Alberta. Even Harper was spreading misinformation about "Saudi oil tankers coming up the St Lawrence" -- that's just bullshit. The only part of our country that uses middle eastern imports is Atlantic Canada, for obvious reasons. I don't see it as colonial at all. I think certain people got very aggressive when necessary moves were made around climate regulation. As a person who lived half their live in Alberta, and half their life here... I just think those people are wrong. a) It's wrong for Alberta to be so dependent on hydrocarbons and it needs to diversify b) Climate change is real and Alberta's exports play a significant role in that. There is a lot of ... motivated ... disinformation spread by various actors in Alberta. People should be skeptical.
  - cf100clunk 5mo ago
    I acknowledge your perspective, fair enough, but it seems focused on the present. Western alienation goes far, far back, predating Confederation. The golden age of the Atlantic provinces goes back to a period hundreds of years ago, too. I'm just pointing out from a historical view that the cultural effect of so much power and influence being centred in Toronto and Montreal had, and continues to have, a large influence on Canadians, going back many, many generations. Some grind axes, others shrug, some stand up and shout "Excuse me, we've been here all along too, what about us?" I remain positive and upbeat that we'll sort it all out together.
    - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
      I think what you're pointing at is potentially true but also that it's somewhat easily exploited by ideologically and money driven people for some rather ... what I would consider nefarious ends. When I first moved here to Ontario I was blown away by how many people my own age didn't even know what/where Edmonton (a city of a million people, and the capital of the province) was, their only conception of Alberta was Calgary at most. At the same time, I feel a strong sense of unease in the other direction when I'm out visiting family. There, again, there seems to be some confusion about what the country actually is. I really love this country, having lived on two ends of it and driven across it many times. I've moved back and forth twice via Grayhound, 50+ hours slogging it across northern Ontario and the prairies stopping at every weird little town. It's really something, what we've built here. I wish more people saw more of it.
      - cf100clunk 5mo ago
        Cold War RCAF brat here. Wherever Dad was transferred, that's where we went. It was a joy, but I've found over the years that folks sometimes get a bit cranky when I cannot pinpoint which part of Canada I'm from... for me, it has always been ''everywhere''.
    - xp84 5mo ago
      > I remain positive and upbeat that we'll sort it all out together. Quite possibly the most Canadian comment I’ve ever seen. There’s a reason we (Americans) love you guys!
- mountain_peak 5mo ago
  > central Canada This is part of the issue; the GTA is solidly in the east (the centre of Canada is in Manitoba), but when someone says, "eastern Canada", one automatically thinks "Nova Scotia", but Toronto is a relatively short drive from New York City. That being said, I understand that in most cases, "central" is referring to population, industry, finance (not fashion - that's Montrėal). Regarding the site, the exhibit's producer, Zbigniew Stachniak, wrote an excellent book [0] on the world's first truly portable computer: the MCM/70 - which ran APL (yay!). [0] https://www.mqup.ca/Books/I/Inventing-the-PC2 https://www.mqup.ca/Books/I/Inventing-the-PC2
  - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
    Toronto is also a relatively short drive from Chicago. It's actually far more similar to Chicago than to coastal NYC. It is really geographically "midwest" by US standards, not "east" When I was in elementary school in Alberta in the 80s we called this "central Canada." And that's how I still think of it. But there's a growing trend especially in Alberta to call this "down east" which is in my mind a very political way of "othering" what is actually geographically quite central and economically and demographically as well.
    - mountain_peak 5mo ago
      Indeed - Chicago is considered "midwest" even though it is geographically in the eastern US. Maybe that's New York City-centrism from long ago? Edmonton is as far west from the geographical centre of Canada as Toronto is east. I think it's a a bit of a stretch to call the GTA "geographically central". Economically and demographically, definitely. The Weather Network, which really should consider geographic markers only, calls the GTA "central Canada". I think there would be an outcry if they started saying "eastern Canada".
      - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
        In general when I think of "eastern" for both Canada and the United States I think "coastal." Yes, I guess Vermont is considered northeast and it's not on the Atlantic, but it's really not far from it. And that's ... definitely not Ontario. Unless you count the lakes, which I mean, sure, why not? Or another definition of eastern might be "along the Appalachian range". And again, def not Ontario. Quebec is more up for debate. Most of southern Ontario is also most definitely "midwest" from a "biome" POV. The first couple times I went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for work I was thinking it would feel like the prairies, like Manitoba or Sask or something. Nope, it looked identical to southern Ontario. In fact it was the same latitude, even. The vegetation and terrain, I felt like I was in Essex County or something. If I'd gotten in a car and driven home, it would have been directly east on the interstate and it would have been same same same corn and soy fields, maples, oaks, etc for 16 hours.
- patcon 5mo ago
  This is so true, but I've never heard it framed so clearly. Thank you! As as Maritimer who moved to Toronto (but who came of age as an adult outside the Maritimes), your comment def wakes me up to the moral imperative of resisting the Toronto-centric framing in whatever ways I can
- stackghost 5mo ago
  >like the British Empire treated it colony Canada, so does the country treats us This persecution complex seems bizarre. The only entities exploiting Alberta are the oil companies who offshore billions of dollars in profits. Instead of growing their sovereign wealth fund the way Norway does, Albertans allowed themselves to be exploited. Edit: I see now that when I wrote "created a fund like Norway" it was taken as implying Alberta didn't have a fund, when what I meant was "created one that is similar to Norway's fund". Edited for clarity.
  - dismalaf 5mo ago
    1. Alberta has a wealth fund. 2. The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway has. Also, you are aware that, no matter who exploits the oil, the Alberta government receives royalties from it, right? Also, most of the foreign companies have joint ventures with Canadian entities and a lot of the money does stay within Canada and Alberta. And even with all the equalization Alberta has sent, we're still the richest province by far. We just know we could be much richer still...
    - stackghost 5mo ago
      >Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token royalties. Norway's was established in the 90s and is multiple orders of magnitude larger, because they don't allow big oil to fuck them over. >The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway has. You are being fed a narrative. Equalization payments are taken from federal tax revenues. Every Canadian pays taxes according to the same graduated tax rate schedule, whether Albertan or not. Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works.
      - dismalaf 5mo ago
        > Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works. You're being pedantic. Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces.
- grobibi 5mo ago
  Look on the bright side; at least you're not from New Brunswick.
dhosek 5mo ago
Well, it is the capital (/s).
Waterluvian 5mo ago
Can confirm. I live in a small farming hamlet with a population of about 42,000 one hour outside Toronto and Canada Revenue Agency considers me "rural Canada" for tax purposes.
cf100clunk 5mo ago
Had the title and focus been on ''Ontario'' or ''Toronto'', all would have been better.
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
harwoodr 5mo ago
I've lived my entire life just "down the road" from Toronto in Canada's 10th largest city. Always in the shadow of Toronto and the butt of many jokes. Back when I worked in Toronto, people would always ask when I'd be moving there - because why would you want to live anywhere else? I also remember, circa 2000, when the marketing people at the company I worked at were talking about advertising - they didn't see the point of spending on advertising outside of Toronto. It's a very different mindset, that's for sure.
- TheCycoONE 5mo ago
  I grew up in Orillia, but my siblings and I all moved to your city. At the time it was just the closest to Toronto I could afford because all jobs are in Toronto. This city has grown on me, I wouldn't want to be any closer to Toronto.
  - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
    Hello fellow Hammertonites actually I'm rural Flamborough, but when I go to town... I drive right past Waterdown and go to Hamilton instead :-)
- stackghost 5mo ago
  >I've lived my entire life just "down the road" from Toronto in Canada's 10th largest city. Always in the shadow of Toronto and the butt of many jokes. The Hammer, no doubt.
steve_adams_86 5mo ago
Everyone in my tiny village of Victoria, BC dreams of one day visiting the city of Canada commonly referred to as Toronto
soperj 5mo ago
This is dumb. If he knew Canada at all, he'd know that Toronto is actually the only city in the Universe.
cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
I mean, it gets worse. When I first moved to Toronto and became born again and in love with that city, I was even more of a snob and wouldn't even deign to consider as civilized any area that was north of Bloor. Ok I live just outside Hamilton now, I'm reformed.
FatherOfCurses 5mo ago
York University is in Toronto and the GTA is the most populous area in Canada, I don't think it's a vast conspiracy.
- cf100clunk 5mo ago
  If you're referring to the title, it conflates a relatively small geographic area having a large, concentrated population (York University, GTA, Southern Ontario) with a vastly larger but less densely concentrated national population (the rest of Canada), so it is easily seen as irritating to folks in the latter. Not hard to understand. Not a conspiracy.

I'm in Toronto and I can confirm.

skeeter2020 5mo ago

If Canada historically has a complex around his relative relationship to the USA, the same holds outside of central Canada, maybe with the exception of pockets that punch above their weight in terms of representation (like PEI). This is both funny (TSN: Toronto Sports Network) and concerning (current AB and SK alienation). Personally I'm first a Canadian and second a proud Albertan, and find it maddening that like the British Empire treated it colony Canada, so does the country treats us, and the resulting brinksmanship is scary & dangerous.

cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
I dunno man. I grew up in Edmonton area and didn't much care about whatever in central Canada, and only had a vague sense of it despite having done a trip across Canada with the family when I was 8. Of course "western alienation" talk was all around from right wing sorts but my family paid no attention to it anyways. Then I moved to Toronto in 1996 in the .com boom. I had spent plenty of time in Vancouver but living in Toronto was night and day in terms of vibrancy, culture, activity, economy. Toronto was a real living city and even Vancouver didn't compare. TLDR there's a reason why the country is in part Toronto centric. There's just a lot going on there. A lot of people, a lot of money, and a lot of culture. In the 90s especially it really was "downtown Canada." That would have been even more so in the period this article is talking about. It has nothing to do with Toronto people thinking they're superior, it has to do with the fact that this is the 3rd or 4th (depending how you count it) largest city in North America and nothing else in Canada even comes close. I have lived both sides and most of my family is still in Alberta. The persecution complex out there is 100% bullshit. Nobody in reality is treating Alberta badly. It actually gets a remarkably good deal in confederation -- selling oil and gas to the rest of the country. Hydrocarbons aren't the centre of existence. Even after all these years of neglect and downgrading the manufacturing economies of central Canada are still a massive part of the GDP of the country, and the industrial policies that apply for them are not necessarily the same as for energy or forestry exports and that needs to be recognized. Not to mention that this part of the world is where the bulk of the population still is. Yet I hear people in Alberta routinely talk about how they're somehow holding the whole country up. It's not factually correct. Not even close, unless you play wilful distortion of how equalization works. Also, we are some of the the biggest customers of Alberta, Line 9 runs right behind my farm. 90% of the oil used here in Ontario is purchased via that line from Alberta, pumped from Edmonton. I also fail to see recognition of this from many pundits in Alberta. Even Harper was spreading misinformation about "Saudi oil tankers coming up the St Lawrence" -- that's just bullshit. The only part of our country that uses middle eastern imports is Atlantic Canada, for obvious reasons. I don't see it as colonial at all. I think certain people got very aggressive when necessary moves were made around climate regulation. As a person who lived half their live in Alberta, and half their life here... I just think those people are wrong. a) It's wrong for Alberta to be so dependent on hydrocarbons and it needs to diversify b) Climate change is real and Alberta's exports play a significant role in that. There is a lot of ... motivated ... disinformation spread by various actors in Alberta. People should be skeptical.
- cf100clunk 5mo ago
  I acknowledge your perspective, fair enough, but it seems focused on the present. Western alienation goes far, far back, predating Confederation. The golden age of the Atlantic provinces goes back to a period hundreds of years ago, too. I'm just pointing out from a historical view that the cultural effect of so much power and influence being centred in Toronto and Montreal had, and continues to have, a large influence on Canadians, going back many, many generations. Some grind axes, others shrug, some stand up and shout "Excuse me, we've been here all along too, what about us?" I remain positive and upbeat that we'll sort it all out together.
  - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
    I think what you're pointing at is potentially true but also that it's somewhat easily exploited by ideologically and money driven people for some rather ... what I would consider nefarious ends. When I first moved here to Ontario I was blown away by how many people my own age didn't even know what/where Edmonton (a city of a million people, and the capital of the province) was, their only conception of Alberta was Calgary at most. At the same time, I feel a strong sense of unease in the other direction when I'm out visiting family. There, again, there seems to be some confusion about what the country actually is. I really love this country, having lived on two ends of it and driven across it many times. I've moved back and forth twice via Grayhound, 50+ hours slogging it across northern Ontario and the prairies stopping at every weird little town. It's really something, what we've built here. I wish more people saw more of it.
    - cf100clunk 5mo ago
      Cold War RCAF brat here. Wherever Dad was transferred, that's where we went. It was a joy, but I've found over the years that folks sometimes get a bit cranky when I cannot pinpoint which part of Canada I'm from... for me, it has always been ''everywhere''.
  - xp84 5mo ago
    > I remain positive and upbeat that we'll sort it all out together. Quite possibly the most Canadian comment I’ve ever seen. There’s a reason we (Americans) love you guys!
mountain_peak 5mo ago
> central Canada This is part of the issue; the GTA is solidly in the east (the centre of Canada is in Manitoba), but when someone says, "eastern Canada", one automatically thinks "Nova Scotia", but Toronto is a relatively short drive from New York City. That being said, I understand that in most cases, "central" is referring to population, industry, finance (not fashion - that's Montrėal). Regarding the site, the exhibit's producer, Zbigniew Stachniak, wrote an excellent book [0] on the world's first truly portable computer: the MCM/70 - which ran APL (yay!). [0] https://www.mqup.ca/Books/I/Inventing-the-PC2 https://www.mqup.ca/Books/I/Inventing-the-PC2
- cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
  Toronto is also a relatively short drive from Chicago. It's actually far more similar to Chicago than to coastal NYC. It is really geographically "midwest" by US standards, not "east" When I was in elementary school in Alberta in the 80s we called this "central Canada." And that's how I still think of it. But there's a growing trend especially in Alberta to call this "down east" which is in my mind a very political way of "othering" what is actually geographically quite central and economically and demographically as well.
  - mountain_peak 5mo ago
    Indeed - Chicago is considered "midwest" even though it is geographically in the eastern US. Maybe that's New York City-centrism from long ago? Edmonton is as far west from the geographical centre of Canada as Toronto is east. I think it's a a bit of a stretch to call the GTA "geographically central". Economically and demographically, definitely. The Weather Network, which really should consider geographic markers only, calls the GTA "central Canada". I think there would be an outcry if they started saying "eastern Canada".
    - cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
      In general when I think of "eastern" for both Canada and the United States I think "coastal." Yes, I guess Vermont is considered northeast and it's not on the Atlantic, but it's really not far from it. And that's ... definitely not Ontario. Unless you count the lakes, which I mean, sure, why not? Or another definition of eastern might be "along the Appalachian range". And again, def not Ontario. Quebec is more up for debate. Most of southern Ontario is also most definitely "midwest" from a "biome" POV. The first couple times I went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for work I was thinking it would feel like the prairies, like Manitoba or Sask or something. Nope, it looked identical to southern Ontario. In fact it was the same latitude, even. The vegetation and terrain, I felt like I was in Essex County or something. If I'd gotten in a car and driven home, it would have been directly east on the interstate and it would have been same same same corn and soy fields, maples, oaks, etc for 16 hours.
patcon 5mo ago
This is so true, but I've never heard it framed so clearly. Thank you! As as Maritimer who moved to Toronto (but who came of age as an adult outside the Maritimes), your comment def wakes me up to the moral imperative of resisting the Toronto-centric framing in whatever ways I can
stackghost 5mo ago
>like the British Empire treated it colony Canada, so does the country treats us This persecution complex seems bizarre. The only entities exploiting Alberta are the oil companies who offshore billions of dollars in profits. Instead of growing their sovereign wealth fund the way Norway does, Albertans allowed themselves to be exploited. Edit: I see now that when I wrote "created a fund like Norway" it was taken as implying Alberta didn't have a fund, when what I meant was "created one that is similar to Norway's fund". Edited for clarity.
- dismalaf 5mo ago
  1. Alberta has a wealth fund. 2. The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway has. Also, you are aware that, no matter who exploits the oil, the Alberta government receives royalties from it, right? Also, most of the foreign companies have joint ventures with Canadian entities and a lot of the money does stay within Canada and Alberta. And even with all the equalization Alberta has sent, we're still the richest province by far. We just know we could be much richer still...
  - stackghost 5mo ago
    >Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token royalties. Norway's was established in the 90s and is multiple orders of magnitude larger, because they don't allow big oil to fuck them over. >The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway has. You are being fed a narrative. Equalization payments are taken from federal tax revenues. Every Canadian pays taxes according to the same graduated tax rate schedule, whether Albertan or not. Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works.
    - dismalaf 5mo ago
      > Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works. You're being pedantic. Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces.
grobibi 5mo ago
Look on the bright side; at least you're not from New Brunswick.

dhosek 5mo ago

Well, it is the capital (/s).

Waterluvian 5mo ago

Can confirm. I live in a small farming hamlet with a population of about 42,000 one hour outside Toronto and Canada Revenue Agency considers me "rural Canada" for tax purposes.

cf100clunk 5mo ago

Had the title and focus been on ''Ontario'' or ''Toronto'', all would have been better.

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

harwoodr 5mo ago

I've lived my entire life just "down the road" from Toronto in Canada's 10th largest city. Always in the shadow of Toronto and the butt of many jokes. Back when I worked in Toronto, people would always ask when I'd be moving there - because why would you want to live anywhere else? I also remember, circa 2000, when the marketing people at the company I worked at were talking about advertising - they didn't see the point of spending on advertising outside of Toronto. It's a very different mindset, that's for sure.

TheCycoONE 5mo ago
I grew up in Orillia, but my siblings and I all moved to your city. At the time it was just the closest to Toronto I could afford because all jobs are in Toronto. This city has grown on me, I wouldn't want to be any closer to Toronto.
- cmrdporcupine 5mo ago
  Hello fellow Hammertonites actually I'm rural Flamborough, but when I go to town... I drive right past Waterdown and go to Hamilton instead :-)
stackghost 5mo ago
>I've lived my entire life just "down the road" from Toronto in Canada's 10th largest city. Always in the shadow of Toronto and the butt of many jokes. The Hammer, no doubt.

steve_adams_86 5mo ago

Everyone in my tiny village of Victoria, BC dreams of one day visiting the city of Canada commonly referred to as Toronto

soperj 5mo ago

This is dumb. If he knew Canada at all, he'd know that Toronto is actually the only city in the Universe.

cmrdporcupine 5mo ago

I mean, it gets worse. When I first moved to Toronto and became born again and in love with that city, I was even more of a snob and wouldn't even deign to consider as civilized any area that was north of Bloor. Ok I live just outside Hamilton now, I'm reformed.

FatherOfCurses 5mo ago

York University is in Toronto and the GTA is the most populous area in Canada, I don't think it's a vast conspiracy.

cf100clunk 5mo ago
If you're referring to the title, it conflates a relatively small geographic area having a large, concentrated population (York University, GTA, Southern Ontario) with a vastly larger but less densely concentrated national population (the rest of Canada), so it is easily seen as irritating to folks in the latter. Not hard to understand. Not a conspiracy.