4 ms·

> You act like cheating is new to video games?? No, I think the point is that with AI the existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI

> You act like cheating is new to video games?? No, I think the point is that with AI the existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Therefore anti-cheat kernel modules will no longer be useful, and will no longer be a reason to stay on Windows.

zrm 5mo ago
It seems like what this needs is the return of video arcades. Fill a room at the mall with Linux boxen with midrange GPUs and fiber internet and the sort of keyboards you can clean with pressurized water. Charge an entry fee and then sell pizza, cheetos, coffee, soda and beer. Open at 11AM and close at sunrise. Then publish the public IPs used by the arcade-owned machines at each location in the chain and use different public IPs for the customer WiFi. No DRM nonsense, just a way to know you're playing with someone at the arcade where the management doesn't allow cheats on their machines.
- hackeridiot12 5mo ago
  Yes exactly but you do not go far enough with your plans. What is the point of any game if we can not determine who has memorised the meta best and who’s fingers twitch fastest. We need to out law general purpose computing in society and first it must be slowly phased out. Humans have shown they can not be trusted with open platforms they will always cheat and scam each other to gain an advantage. We will also need eye tracking devices to determine if they are cheating by reading notes off paper nearby. I think your plan comes to perfection if we chip everyone in case someone else plays for them on the locked down device.
dragontamer 5mo ago
No one is going to use LLMs if aimbots are available. Have you even played an FPS vs an aimbots before?
kelseydh 5mo ago
Chess anti-cheat now relies on looking at your moves and spotting mistakes. Not even grandmasters play tactically perfect games so this works pretty well for finding cheaters. In theory FPS games could do the same to detect aimbotting.
- harry8 5mo ago
  and will have to do something along those lines for online play.
- hootz 5mo ago
  I still don't understand why we aren't using server-side gameplay analysis for cheat detection. You can have some obvious inhuman-level gameplay heuristics for real time kicks/timeouts during matches and post-game analysis by AI to flag for review or outright automatically ban gameplay that deviates from normal high-level players.
  - not_a9 5mo ago
    Games very much are using server-side statistics analysis for cheat detection. Valve made a presentation about it and Epic has an API for feeding game state data to ML anticheat for aimbot detection (game-specific and in addition to their existing anticheat measures) It’s just that it doesn’t work.
    - hootz 5mo ago
      But why doesn't it work?
      - not_a9 5mo ago
        Either everyone on Earth who’s working on this has a skill issue (which is probably hubris?) or there’s not enough differing humanized enough aimbot from human aim (note: Valve manages to screw up even here, with cheaters in Premier basically rage aimbotting these days IIRC) In addition, there’s not much these things can do against subtler stuff like ESP.
lll-o-lll 5mo ago
> existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Great. Now we are going to get “secure cables” for mouse and keyboard and bluetooth device attestation.
- account42 5mo ago
  You're already one step behind. The interface the human player is using isn't USB, it's genuine keyboards and mice.
account42 5mo ago
I generally agree with this conclusion but there are a class of cheats that don't just improve the player's speed/aim/reaction time/etc but actually give you information that you shouldn't have but needs to be available locally to hide network latency like players on the other side of a wall.

zrm 5mo ago

It seems like what this needs is the return of video arcades. Fill a room at the mall with Linux boxen with midrange GPUs and fiber internet and the sort of keyboards you can clean with pressurized water. Charge an entry fee and then sell pizza, cheetos, coffee, soda and beer. Open at 11AM and close at sunrise. Then publish the public IPs used by the arcade-owned machines at each location in the chain and use different public IPs for the customer WiFi. No DRM nonsense, just a way to know you're playing with someone at the arcade where the management doesn't allow cheats on their machines.

hackeridiot12 5mo ago
Yes exactly but you do not go far enough with your plans. What is the point of any game if we can not determine who has memorised the meta best and who’s fingers twitch fastest. We need to out law general purpose computing in society and first it must be slowly phased out. Humans have shown they can not be trusted with open platforms they will always cheat and scam each other to gain an advantage. We will also need eye tracking devices to determine if they are cheating by reading notes off paper nearby. I think your plan comes to perfection if we chip everyone in case someone else plays for them on the locked down device.

dragontamer 5mo ago

No one is going to use LLMs if aimbots are available. Have you even played an FPS vs an aimbots before?

kelseydh 5mo ago

Chess anti-cheat now relies on looking at your moves and spotting mistakes. Not even grandmasters play tactically perfect games so this works pretty well for finding cheaters. In theory FPS games could do the same to detect aimbotting.

harry8 5mo ago
and will have to do something along those lines for online play.
hootz 5mo ago
I still don't understand why we aren't using server-side gameplay analysis for cheat detection. You can have some obvious inhuman-level gameplay heuristics for real time kicks/timeouts during matches and post-game analysis by AI to flag for review or outright automatically ban gameplay that deviates from normal high-level players.
- not_a9 5mo ago
  Games very much are using server-side statistics analysis for cheat detection. Valve made a presentation about it and Epic has an API for feeding game state data to ML anticheat for aimbot detection (game-specific and in addition to their existing anticheat measures) It’s just that it doesn’t work.
  - hootz 5mo ago
    But why doesn't it work?
    - not_a9 5mo ago
      Either everyone on Earth who’s working on this has a skill issue (which is probably hubris?) or there’s not enough differing humanized enough aimbot from human aim (note: Valve manages to screw up even here, with cheaters in Premier basically rage aimbotting these days IIRC) In addition, there’s not much these things can do against subtler stuff like ESP.

lll-o-lll 5mo ago

> existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Great. Now we are going to get “secure cables” for mouse and keyboard and bluetooth device attestation.

account42 5mo ago
You're already one step behind. The interface the human player is using isn't USB, it's genuine keyboards and mice.

account42 5mo ago

I generally agree with this conclusion but there are a class of cheats that don't just improve the player's speed/aim/reaction time/etc but actually give you information that you shouldn't have but needs to be available locally to hide network latency like players on the other side of a wall.