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Online multiplayer games keep trying to allow linux users in and keep having to lock them out because there's an instant influx of cheaters. The Nintendo Switc

Online multiplayer games keep trying to allow linux users in and keep having to lock them out because there's an instant influx of cheaters. The Nintendo Switch (which runs Linux) was a favorite of cheaters after jailbreaks came out. When anyone can compile and run their own kernel with god knows what for modifications, that makes it substantially easier for cheaters and substantially harder for anti-cheat. I don't see that ever changing. You can't rely on server-side detection either, because some of the cheats are so advanced they go to great lengths to "behave" like a highly skilled human player would with their aiming

emkoemko 5mo ago
i am really doubting that Nintendo Switch uses Linux?... they would have to provide source code no?
- f33d5173 5mo ago
  Only to the kernel. And only if they patched it. Kernel modules don't count as patches. This is how myriad android vendors get out of providing source. But no, the switch doesn't use linux afaik.
treyd 5mo ago
The Nintendo Switch runs a custom operating system codenamed HorizonOS.
- tardedmeme 5mo ago
  I was going to say. There's no way Nintendo would be caught dead with GPL anything, even GPLv2.
YPPH 5mo ago
>The Nintendo Switch (which runs Linux) was a favorite of cheaters after jailbreaks came out. If you're saying the Nintendo Switch system software is Linux-based, I don't think that's correct. It's a proprietary system based on a microkernel architecture.
- farmerbb 5mo ago
  I think it's a FreeBSD variant, if I remember correctly.
  - DarkUranium 5mo ago
    It's definitely not. Completely bespoke OS.
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
  - cobalt 5mo ago
    ps* is based on freeBSD, Nintendo is proprietary (though use OSS libraries)
- swiftcoder 5mo ago
  It's proprietary, but they kit bashed a bunch of existing components (iirc, Android's surface flinger, the Nvidia embedded linux drivers, and the freebsd network stack)
harry8 5mo ago
The status quo's days are numbered. Online chess shows how. An AI will play these games like a human but better. The AI can be totally separate from the windows box wearing anti-cheat ankle bracelets just as your brain a separate thing to the windows box when when you play. It can interact with the box via keyboard, mouse or controller. No windows kernel module is useful in detecting and deterring chess cheating no matter how fanciful or factual the vibrating "device" stories are. Anti-cheat by kernel module, it's day will be entirely done very soon if it isn't already. "Any time you beat a computer at a game it let you win." Are we there yet? If not, how long?
- eightysixfour 5mo ago
  > "Any time you beat a computer at a game it let you win." Are we there yet? If not, how long? I don't want to beat a computer, I want to beat another person.
- dragontamer 5mo ago
  It never was fair to play vs computers in reaction games or skill games. IE: Quakebots and Fighting games have perfect reaction times and perfect combos. They can simply block perfectly and counter attack perfectly and never drop a combo. You act like cheating is new to video games?? -------- We never wanted bot in these games. Still don't want them today, and it's a big reason that playing on public boxes (ex: at an arcade or eSports tournament) is still a thing. Defeating an opponent in a tournament is a big thing for fighting games. The risk of cheating online is always there so online tournaments are simply never taken as seriously (ie: as much $$$$ risked as real life tournaments).
  - wtetzner 5mo ago
    > You act like cheating is new to video games?? No, I think the point is that with AI the existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Therefore anti-cheat kernel modules will no longer be useful, and will no longer be a reason to stay on Windows.
QuaternionsBhop 5mo ago
> You can't rely on server-side detection either, because some of the cheats are so advanced they go to great lengths to "behave" like a highly skilled human player would with their aiming Shouldn't that be the goal of anti cheat? That cheating is indistinguishable from expert gameplay? Seems to me like these companies are just trying to avoid implementing proper infallible server-authoritative gameplay by offloading the cheat detection to the untrustworthy client, and then trying to lock down the client to make it trustworthy.
- ben-schaaf 5mo ago
  All these games already have an authoritative server. These cheaters aren't breaking the rules of the game by being invincible, super speedy, etc. they're aim-botting and wall hacking. Those cheats can't be prevented with authoritative networking.
  - emkoemko 5mo ago
    why can't we prevent wall hacking by not sending packets of enemy players position if the user can't see them on their screen
    - lovich 5mo ago
      you run into some really difficult to solve issues when it comes to the gameplay loop, the graphics engine, and network latency trying to solve that unless you are playing some sort of turn based game where all data can be resolved before the next action
    - ChocolateGod 5mo ago
      You can do it to a degree (basic room detection), but it'll never be 100% accurate because of latency and compute cost, you have to give leeway.
    - yetihehe 5mo ago
      Sometimes user can partially see them, game client would need that position. Then user can make a mod that flashes silhouette that just appeared behind a wall for a moment.
ben-schaaf 5mo ago
And yet there's plenty of competitive multiplayer shooters that work fine on Linux. Rivals, The Finals, deadlock, CS2, Overwatch, Hunt Showdown, etc. EA did a big announcement about switching to kernel level Anti-Cheat for Battlefield 6 to combat cheating, yet there's still plenty of cheaters around. It's looking more and more like an excuse in order to give the appearance of combating cheating.
benchloftbrunch 5mo ago
Nintendo Switch does not run Linux, it runs a proprietary OS called Horizon based on the Nintendo 3DS firmware. Not sure but it might or might not have some BSD code in the network stack or something.
- dlcarrier 5mo ago
  Pretty much everything uses BSD source code in the network stack, including Windows, so that much is a safe assumption, but there's far more that the Switch is using. According to the copyright notice, it uses the FreeBSD kernel. This tracks with reported use of BSD jails, which are part of the BSD kernel.
prmoustache 5mo ago
What is the problem with cheating or bots really? I feel that the solution is just to have a decent ranking/level system so that users play with other people, cheaters, bots or regular users of the same level. When I was playing mario kart with my 5y old daughter, I didn't mind she had access to helps to not run out of the road as it allowed us to play together. I don't see how different it is between say, a super skilled player, and a lower skilled player with cheat/assists. If cheating/assists system becomes so efficient, cheaters will just end up playing together and non cheater will have got rid of them and play between non cheater of similar level. Prolem solved. No?
- Gareth321 5mo ago
  People who are not naturally competitive (or who don't like competition) struggle to understand the drive. For many, competing against a computer is FAR less engaging or rewarding than against a person. Even if the person is less skilled than the computer. The human element - chance, variance in skill, emotions, etc - is very motivating for some people. The same people often like sports (which I do not). If you replaced every athlete in every competition in the Olympics with a robot, would you still find it as compelling? Some would, but many would not.
a_vanderbilt 5mo ago
You should not consider Tim Sweeney's comments on the matter as a reliable source. He was veiling his true motivations behind that statement. The Switch does not run Linux either, it's a custom OS descending from the Wii's iOS. The cheating issue isn't really a matter of being able to run custom kernel code. You can do the same thing on Windows, which is why remote attestation is a thing for some games. As someone who has developed games for Linux (and Windows / Mac), it's an endless cat and mouse game. So long as the system can execute code that is not yours, you never really are getting perfect anticheat. Ease of loading custom kernel code isn't really a hurdle to that. I find that client and server based in combination is the robust approach. I once implemented anti-cheat in which the server lied about game state, which a regular client without cheats would act predictably on. Deviation from that behavior is a useful heuristic to build a suspicion score.

emkoemko 5mo ago

i am really doubting that Nintendo Switch uses Linux?... they would have to provide source code no?

f33d5173 5mo ago
Only to the kernel. And only if they patched it. Kernel modules don't count as patches. This is how myriad android vendors get out of providing source. But no, the switch doesn't use linux afaik.

treyd 5mo ago

The Nintendo Switch runs a custom operating system codenamed HorizonOS.

tardedmeme 5mo ago
I was going to say. There's no way Nintendo would be caught dead with GPL anything, even GPLv2.

YPPH 5mo ago

>The Nintendo Switch (which runs Linux) was a favorite of cheaters after jailbreaks came out. If you're saying the Nintendo Switch system software is Linux-based, I don't think that's correct. It's a proprietary system based on a microkernel architecture.

farmerbb 5mo ago
I think it's a FreeBSD variant, if I remember correctly.
- DarkUranium 5mo ago
  It's definitely not. Completely bespoke OS.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
- cobalt 5mo ago
  ps* is based on freeBSD, Nintendo is proprietary (though use OSS libraries)
swiftcoder 5mo ago
It's proprietary, but they kit bashed a bunch of existing components (iirc, Android's surface flinger, the Nvidia embedded linux drivers, and the freebsd network stack)

harry8 5mo ago

The status quo's days are numbered. Online chess shows how. An AI will play these games like a human but better. The AI can be totally separate from the windows box wearing anti-cheat ankle bracelets just as your brain a separate thing to the windows box when when you play. It can interact with the box via keyboard, mouse or controller. No windows kernel module is useful in detecting and deterring chess cheating no matter how fanciful or factual the vibrating "device" stories are. Anti-cheat by kernel module, it's day will be entirely done very soon if it isn't already. "Any time you beat a computer at a game it let you win." Are we there yet? If not, how long?

eightysixfour 5mo ago
> "Any time you beat a computer at a game it let you win." Are we there yet? If not, how long? I don't want to beat a computer, I want to beat another person.
dragontamer 5mo ago
It never was fair to play vs computers in reaction games or skill games. IE: Quakebots and Fighting games have perfect reaction times and perfect combos. They can simply block perfectly and counter attack perfectly and never drop a combo. You act like cheating is new to video games?? -------- We never wanted bot in these games. Still don't want them today, and it's a big reason that playing on public boxes (ex: at an arcade or eSports tournament) is still a thing. Defeating an opponent in a tournament is a big thing for fighting games. The risk of cheating online is always there so online tournaments are simply never taken as seriously (ie: as much $$$$ risked as real life tournaments).
- wtetzner 5mo ago
  > You act like cheating is new to video games?? No, I think the point is that with AI the existing anti-cheat measures can simply be avoided by letting the AI play through the same interface as a human. Therefore anti-cheat kernel modules will no longer be useful, and will no longer be a reason to stay on Windows.

QuaternionsBhop 5mo ago

> You can't rely on server-side detection either, because some of the cheats are so advanced they go to great lengths to "behave" like a highly skilled human player would with their aiming Shouldn't that be the goal of anti cheat? That cheating is indistinguishable from expert gameplay? Seems to me like these companies are just trying to avoid implementing proper infallible server-authoritative gameplay by offloading the cheat detection to the untrustworthy client, and then trying to lock down the client to make it trustworthy.

ben-schaaf 5mo ago
All these games already have an authoritative server. These cheaters aren't breaking the rules of the game by being invincible, super speedy, etc. they're aim-botting and wall hacking. Those cheats can't be prevented with authoritative networking.
- emkoemko 5mo ago
  why can't we prevent wall hacking by not sending packets of enemy players position if the user can't see them on their screen
  - lovich 5mo ago
    you run into some really difficult to solve issues when it comes to the gameplay loop, the graphics engine, and network latency trying to solve that unless you are playing some sort of turn based game where all data can be resolved before the next action
  - ChocolateGod 5mo ago
    You can do it to a degree (basic room detection), but it'll never be 100% accurate because of latency and compute cost, you have to give leeway.
  - yetihehe 5mo ago
    Sometimes user can partially see them, game client would need that position. Then user can make a mod that flashes silhouette that just appeared behind a wall for a moment.

ben-schaaf 5mo ago

And yet there's plenty of competitive multiplayer shooters that work fine on Linux. Rivals, The Finals, deadlock, CS2, Overwatch, Hunt Showdown, etc. EA did a big announcement about switching to kernel level Anti-Cheat for Battlefield 6 to combat cheating, yet there's still plenty of cheaters around. It's looking more and more like an excuse in order to give the appearance of combating cheating.

benchloftbrunch 5mo ago

Nintendo Switch does not run Linux, it runs a proprietary OS called Horizon based on the Nintendo 3DS firmware. Not sure but it might or might not have some BSD code in the network stack or something.

dlcarrier 5mo ago
Pretty much everything uses BSD source code in the network stack, including Windows, so that much is a safe assumption, but there's far more that the Switch is using. According to the copyright notice, it uses the FreeBSD kernel. This tracks with reported use of BSD jails, which are part of the BSD kernel.

prmoustache 5mo ago

What is the problem with cheating or bots really? I feel that the solution is just to have a decent ranking/level system so that users play with other people, cheaters, bots or regular users of the same level. When I was playing mario kart with my 5y old daughter, I didn't mind she had access to helps to not run out of the road as it allowed us to play together. I don't see how different it is between say, a super skilled player, and a lower skilled player with cheat/assists. If cheating/assists system becomes so efficient, cheaters will just end up playing together and non cheater will have got rid of them and play between non cheater of similar level. Prolem solved. No?

Gareth321 5mo ago
People who are not naturally competitive (or who don't like competition) struggle to understand the drive. For many, competing against a computer is FAR less engaging or rewarding than against a person. Even if the person is less skilled than the computer. The human element - chance, variance in skill, emotions, etc - is very motivating for some people. The same people often like sports (which I do not). If you replaced every athlete in every competition in the Olympics with a robot, would you still find it as compelling? Some would, but many would not.

a_vanderbilt 5mo ago

You should not consider Tim Sweeney's comments on the matter as a reliable source. He was veiling his true motivations behind that statement. The Switch does not run Linux either, it's a custom OS descending from the Wii's iOS. The cheating issue isn't really a matter of being able to run custom kernel code. You can do the same thing on Windows, which is why remote attestation is a thing for some games. As someone who has developed games for Linux (and Windows / Mac), it's an endless cat and mouse game. So long as the system can execute code that is not yours, you never really are getting perfect anticheat. Ease of loading custom kernel code isn't really a hurdle to that. I find that client and server based in combination is the robust approach. I once implemented anti-cheat in which the server lied about game state, which a regular client without cheats would act predictably on. Deviation from that behavior is a useful heuristic to build a suspicion score.