4 ms·

Platform algorithms are a big part of the problem but I think this misses another important part. I don't think it is simple as a passive silent majority being

Platform algorithms are a big part of the problem but I think this misses another important part. I don't think it is simple as a passive silent majority being drowned out by a few loud voices. For most of its history, Reddit didn't have an algorithm that promoted stories beyond upvotes and time since posting, that might even still be the case. Despite this, we have still seen a steady trend toward extreme views on the platform. To be fair, it has the reputation (at least in some circles) of being the most redeemable of the major social media platforms, probably thanks to the simplicity of its algorithm. Unfortunately, that's not saying much, it's a low bar to clear. What explains the polarization of Reddit in the absence of a bouncer amplifying extremism? I think there is a significant percentage of users that do not initiate extreme content but participate in amplifying it. They may even find it problematic, but they really don't like the extreme views they hear on the other side. Or maybe it is the content they came to see out of morbid curiosity, something I am guilty of sometimes. The bar is so crowded because people find it preferable to the empty one down the street that has the expectation that people behave respectfully. Incredible presentation, but I think the awareness we need to spread is a movement away from social media in general. As a social outlet it is generally incompatible with healthy social functioning and individual wellbeing. Face-to-face interaction has inherent guardrails for avoiding these problems and supporting the kind of social experience that we are really looking for.

tipsytoad 5mo ago
As someone who basically only hangs out on HN, what are the trends on Reddit? I thought it would vary by channel
- AMerrit 5mo ago
  There are still good niche and well moderated subreddits, but the big ones are pretty annoying. Lots of most extreme version of headline/summary to get the clicks. Tonnes of bot comments, especially with the rise of LLM. Repetitive joke responses.
thin_carapace 5mo ago
if existed a term less crass than 'reddit circle jerk', I would use it. people love it for a reason, bipolar thinking in a herd is natural, we are networked XOR cells by design. id be seperating social media for any related analysis, as two major milestones demarcate distinct usage patterns (first algorithms, then LLMs). imo those factors would influence the discussion about as much as a platforms inherent construction. toxicity has evolved over time, we have progressed from mere keyboard warriors, to nation states delivering propaganda campaigns with a click, now finally half the internet is bot activity.
dwa3592 5mo ago
I personally feel Reddit is extremely polarized and toxic. It really depends on the community.
- okr 5mo ago
  Yeah, have the same sentiment towards Twitter before it has been bought by Mr. Musk. You were always close to being banned. And the American government was colluding. I don't like the tone on X now, but hey, no one silences me, and that is awesome.
  - nickburns 5mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_ban
  - gosub100 5mo ago
    A group of whistleblowers tried to come forward about twitter before Elon bought it. There were entire departments dedicated to suppressing certain ideas and trends, while amplifying others.
    - array_key_first 5mo ago
      Realistically this is something you need to do to some degree. I mean, you probably want to silence the "kill yourself" part of twitter and want to amplify the "please don't kill yourself" part. Regardless, I think it's fairly clear that twitter is as manufactured as it ever was.
  - avidruntime 5mo ago
    How was the US Gov colluding? My recollection of the twitter files was it largely blew out of proportion (for non-tech aligned audiences) that Twitter received tips from CISA regarding misinformation/disinformation and Twitter decided whether to take action on accounts, sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't.
Arkhaine_kupo 5mo ago
> Despite this, we have still seen a steady trend toward extreme views on the platform. There were 3 conditions that were working and were removed very very quickly 1) it was a web application only. Which enforces an interaction that is more contientous 2) it skewed older. Compared to other sites like IFunny or Instagram the age profile was closer to 30 than 12. 3) the upvote/downvote mechanic was used to upvote relevant content not something you agreed with. And downvote to drown overused jokes, lack of nuance posts etc. But in 2020 reddit destroyed 3rd party apis and went full head on the app. Age plummeted, app useage is mroe casual than laptops and length of posts went full brainrot and lastly there was no enforcement to teach people what upvotes meant. So it became thumbs up or down, and the jokes went from heavily downvoted to always the top comment. 150 million users in 6 months is the death of any conversation and reddit did it on purpose to try an IPO.
- genghisjahn 5mo ago
  Slashdot's rating system was the best I've ever seen. But I'm sure it doesn't help improve engagement, in fact the system had so many rules (for an online ratings system) that I'd guess it reduced engagement. Which might have been a feature in its glory days.
  - CM30 5mo ago
    You mean how you had to give a reason for your rating rather than just choosing 'like' or 'dislike'? Honestly, I think that more nuanced setup may help limited toxicity quite a lot. If there's no general upvote/downvote option, people might have to actually think why they like/dislike something rather than treating the system as a "I dislike this because I disagree and everyone should think the same way I do" setup. It's why I quite like the reaction systems some forum scripts have. Yeah they're not perfect (many still have like/dislike options by default), but giving users reasons for why they upvote/downvote a post makes things a lot more meaningful. I also quite like how for some of them, agree and disagree don't actually change how the post appears or count as a rating. They just exist so people can see how many people agree or disagree with something and that's it.
- ishouldstayaway 5mo ago
swed420 5mo ago
> For most of its history, Reddit didn't have an algorithm that promoted stories beyond upvotes and time since posting, that might even still be the case. Reddit is heavily botted, including by capital interests, and has been for a long time. This includes basic up/down vote activity. > I think there is a significant percentage of users that do not initiate extreme content but participate in amplifying it. Yes, it's probably initiated by bots, and then real users are easily persuaded to follow the manufactured herd. These issues are not exclusive to reddit, either.
- gruez 5mo ago
  >Reddit is heavily botted, including by capital interests. Is that why /r/all is consistently anti-capitalism and anti-business?
  - swed420 5mo ago
    It's manufactured controlled opposition which is designed to look crazier than unchecked capitalism, and it's succeeding wildly at its mission. See: wsws.org as a longstanding external example
    - gruez 5mo ago
      So if reddit is more left than you are, it's "manufactured controlled opposition which is designed to look crazier than unchecked capitalism", and I guess if it's less left than you are, then they're a bunch of DINOs (LINOs?) like Manchin or Sinema?
      - swed420 5mo ago
        It's a bunch of siloed group think offered in a variety of flavors. Definitely not a monolith, though basic liberal types (who virtue signal as being more "left" than they really are) might be the most common user. Siloed groups are the easiest to monetize to advertisers, and they're also not a threat to a faux democracy.
Ntrails 5mo ago
Honestly take me back to time ordered forums. Threads, voting, algorithms were all a mistake.
- antisthenes 5mo ago
  They still exist. You just need to be content with smaller communities.
  - micromacrofoot 5mo ago
    they're probably more numerous than ever, just harder to find
throwawayffffas 5mo ago
It's pretty clear, the platforms feed and profit of promoting the loudest most toxic views out there. It's time to just treat these platforms as publishers instead of platforms and make them liable for their speech. Because that is what it is the automation around the method the speech is delivered is irrelevant. As is the viability of the platforms in a environment where they are responsible for what happens on them. We were fine before them, some of them are already dying.
nullc 5mo ago
> that might even still be the case. No way, hasn't been true for many years. Try viewing the site from a few different people's systems.

tipsytoad 5mo ago

As someone who basically only hangs out on HN, what are the trends on Reddit? I thought it would vary by channel

AMerrit 5mo ago
There are still good niche and well moderated subreddits, but the big ones are pretty annoying. Lots of most extreme version of headline/summary to get the clicks. Tonnes of bot comments, especially with the rise of LLM. Repetitive joke responses.

thin_carapace 5mo ago

if existed a term less crass than 'reddit circle jerk', I would use it. people love it for a reason, bipolar thinking in a herd is natural, we are networked XOR cells by design. id be seperating social media for any related analysis, as two major milestones demarcate distinct usage patterns (first algorithms, then LLMs). imo those factors would influence the discussion about as much as a platforms inherent construction. toxicity has evolved over time, we have progressed from mere keyboard warriors, to nation states delivering propaganda campaigns with a click, now finally half the internet is bot activity.

dwa3592 5mo ago

I personally feel Reddit is extremely polarized and toxic. It really depends on the community.

okr 5mo ago
Yeah, have the same sentiment towards Twitter before it has been bought by Mr. Musk. You were always close to being banned. And the American government was colluding. I don't like the tone on X now, but hey, no one silences me, and that is awesome.
- nickburns 5mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_ban
- gosub100 5mo ago
  A group of whistleblowers tried to come forward about twitter before Elon bought it. There were entire departments dedicated to suppressing certain ideas and trends, while amplifying others.
  - array_key_first 5mo ago
    Realistically this is something you need to do to some degree. I mean, you probably want to silence the "kill yourself" part of twitter and want to amplify the "please don't kill yourself" part. Regardless, I think it's fairly clear that twitter is as manufactured as it ever was.
- avidruntime 5mo ago
  How was the US Gov colluding? My recollection of the twitter files was it largely blew out of proportion (for non-tech aligned audiences) that Twitter received tips from CISA regarding misinformation/disinformation and Twitter decided whether to take action on accounts, sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't.

Arkhaine_kupo 5mo ago

> Despite this, we have still seen a steady trend toward extreme views on the platform. There were 3 conditions that were working and were removed very very quickly 1) it was a web application only. Which enforces an interaction that is more contientous 2) it skewed older. Compared to other sites like IFunny or Instagram the age profile was closer to 30 than 12. 3) the upvote/downvote mechanic was used to upvote relevant content not something you agreed with. And downvote to drown overused jokes, lack of nuance posts etc. But in 2020 reddit destroyed 3rd party apis and went full head on the app. Age plummeted, app useage is mroe casual than laptops and length of posts went full brainrot and lastly there was no enforcement to teach people what upvotes meant. So it became thumbs up or down, and the jokes went from heavily downvoted to always the top comment. 150 million users in 6 months is the death of any conversation and reddit did it on purpose to try an IPO.

genghisjahn 5mo ago
Slashdot's rating system was the best I've ever seen. But I'm sure it doesn't help improve engagement, in fact the system had so many rules (for an online ratings system) that I'd guess it reduced engagement. Which might have been a feature in its glory days.
- CM30 5mo ago
  You mean how you had to give a reason for your rating rather than just choosing 'like' or 'dislike'? Honestly, I think that more nuanced setup may help limited toxicity quite a lot. If there's no general upvote/downvote option, people might have to actually think why they like/dislike something rather than treating the system as a "I dislike this because I disagree and everyone should think the same way I do" setup. It's why I quite like the reaction systems some forum scripts have. Yeah they're not perfect (many still have like/dislike options by default), but giving users reasons for why they upvote/downvote a post makes things a lot more meaningful. I also quite like how for some of them, agree and disagree don't actually change how the post appears or count as a rating. They just exist so people can see how many people agree or disagree with something and that's it.
ishouldstayaway 5mo ago

swed420 5mo ago

> For most of its history, Reddit didn't have an algorithm that promoted stories beyond upvotes and time since posting, that might even still be the case. Reddit is heavily botted, including by capital interests, and has been for a long time. This includes basic up/down vote activity. > I think there is a significant percentage of users that do not initiate extreme content but participate in amplifying it. Yes, it's probably initiated by bots, and then real users are easily persuaded to follow the manufactured herd. These issues are not exclusive to reddit, either.

gruez 5mo ago
>Reddit is heavily botted, including by capital interests. Is that why /r/all is consistently anti-capitalism and anti-business?
- swed420 5mo ago
  It's manufactured controlled opposition which is designed to look crazier than unchecked capitalism, and it's succeeding wildly at its mission. See: wsws.org as a longstanding external example
  - gruez 5mo ago
    So if reddit is more left than you are, it's "manufactured controlled opposition which is designed to look crazier than unchecked capitalism", and I guess if it's less left than you are, then they're a bunch of DINOs (LINOs?) like Manchin or Sinema?
    - swed420 5mo ago
      It's a bunch of siloed group think offered in a variety of flavors. Definitely not a monolith, though basic liberal types (who virtue signal as being more "left" than they really are) might be the most common user. Siloed groups are the easiest to monetize to advertisers, and they're also not a threat to a faux democracy.

Ntrails 5mo ago

Honestly take me back to time ordered forums. Threads, voting, algorithms were all a mistake.

antisthenes 5mo ago
They still exist. You just need to be content with smaller communities.
- micromacrofoot 5mo ago
  they're probably more numerous than ever, just harder to find

throwawayffffas 5mo ago

It's pretty clear, the platforms feed and profit of promoting the loudest most toxic views out there. It's time to just treat these platforms as publishers instead of platforms and make them liable for their speech. Because that is what it is the automation around the method the speech is delivered is irrelevant. As is the viability of the platforms in a environment where they are responsible for what happens on them. We were fine before them, some of them are already dying.

nullc 5mo ago

> that might even still be the case. No way, hasn't been true for many years. Try viewing the site from a few different people's systems.