4 ms·

It feels analogous to giving alms to a religious institution at the end of a prayer service - you don't get anything material for it in return, but maybe for th

by sameers 5mo ago

It feels analogous to giving alms to a religious institution at the end of a prayer service - you don't get anything material for it in return, but maybe for the faithful, that's not the point?

catigula 5mo ago
Tithing often involves the implicit or explicit promise of rewards from God, both spiritual and material.
- thinkingtoilet 5mo ago
  That's how this is framed as well.
- StilesCrisis 5mo ago
  Certainly that does happen, and you'd be right to say it's fraud. At the vast majority of churches, it's well understood that the church staff need to eat and pay for the mortgage and upkeep on the facility. Trying to frame tithes as "often grift" is extremely cynical.
epistasis 5mo ago
This is exactly it, I see it in my family members. They are willing to sacrifice so much money and, well, everything to the "cause." It's a cult, and it's deranged. These sorts of scams go on continually in email lists, and vulnerable people just hand over their hard-earned money fist over fist. Pointing out what's going on makes the family member hate whoever points out the con, rather than the con man. If anything, it strengthens the love of the conman and accelerates the grift.
- antonvs 5mo ago
  What's the cause exactly? Make America a white evangelical "paradise"?
  - shagie 5mo ago
    It's an appeal to restore the country to some form of nostalgic view of it. https://www.npr.org/2016/06/07/481137357/the-fractured-republic-explores-how-nostalgia-led-to-polarized-politics https://www.npr.org/2016/06/07/481137357/the-fractured-repub... The fact that Americans are politically divided is self-evident from recent elections. But just how we are divided and why it's proved so hard to get past our differences are questions that admit to many answers. And here's an interesting one from the conservative political theorist Yuval Levin. He says, American liberals and conservatives are both inspired by nostalgia from mid-20th-century America, and they are mired in hopeless efforts to go back rather than focus on the future. ... The striking thing about the baby boomer's cultural dominance over our country for so long is that we view our own past through their eyes. Our idea of the '50s is this kind of simplistic, childish notion of simple families and everything is possible. We see the '60s as a teenager - idealistic, rebellious. In the '70s, we're somewhat maturing, becoming a little cynical. By the '80s we're settled down. In the '90s everything is great. And now, in this century, it seems like we might be over the hill as a country. People think/believe/hope that returning the country to the situation that they perceived that the boomers had when they were growing up without care (because the boomers hadn't yet reached adulthood) would bring back that lifestyle today. ... without having all of the other parts of the social contract between government and the populace in place. People still think that boomers had it best (and maybe they did) and want that lifestyle too.
    - amanaplanacanal 5mo ago
      From what I can see, as a boomer myself, is that we were best at voting ourselves more and more benefits, lower and lower taxes, and mortgaging all the value out of everything that had been built up over the previous generations. And the generations to follow are being left an empty purse.
      - shagie 5mo ago
        I don't entirely place the blame on boomers for the raise of 1950s nostalgia and the corresponding misalignment of economic goals. Someone (not a baby boomer) working in a traditional blue collar job today looks back at the portrayal of life in a rerun of a 1970s sitcom - Happy Days (or spin off, or even an "average" person sitcom from the 80s... Roseanne, Married with children) on late night cable and wonders what it would take to have that lifestyle today? Well, taxes are taking too large of a chunk of the family budget so people gravitate to candidates that say they'll cut taxes. Though, they're missing out on the 1950s tax structure... where people making $200,000 (1950s dollars - about $2M in 2020s dollars) were getting taxed at 91%. Corporate tax rate was much higher too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#History_of_top_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_State... The plank of "we're going to raise taxes" doesn't get as many nostalgic votes for people hoping to return to the lifestyle of the 1950s. There's a whole lot of other factors too. A right leaning 30 year old today is voting to try to have what they perceived how it worked in the 1950s from shallow portrayals of the period.
Meekro 5mo ago
Tithing is not fraud. People give money to support the church, pay the pastor, and so that the church can use it to care for the needy in the community. Good churches do, in fact, use the money for all of the above.
- threatofrain 5mo ago
  The above argument is exploring the framing that the Trump phone is not fraud because it is more like tithing. As long as Trump puts it to good use then it's all good.
david422 5mo ago
There's another article somewhere indicating how Maga is furious because their money is lost. Someone commented on the article something like - "I'm MAGA and I'm not mad at all". Which is perfectly in line with your comment.
sameers 5mo ago
Lol, this is my lesson in being much clearer when expressing any opinion that relates to religion or politics! The downvotes are fierce on this one. I did not intend to say that tithing/church donations are equivalent to fraud. I didn't click through to read the story, and therefore hadn't assumed it indicates actual fraud taking place (delayed shipments in and of themselves are unprofessional, but needn't be fraudulent.) I was implicitly wondering what might motivate people to trust that a brand that has been known to commit fraud, or at the very least to severely under-perform in terms of quality and on-time delivery, can be entrusted with $500 of their money, to produce something the brand isn't known for (consumer electronics.) Having wondered this, I then proceeded to write my next thought down: Maybe there's more to human motivation than simply the possibility of a material exchange. For example, when one donates to a church, one can reasonably do so without expectation of receiving something tangible and material in return. I by no means think tithing is fraud, per se. Can and do churches embezzle money? Yes. Does that mean they are inherently fraudulent institutions? Absolutely not. And I am as godless as they come, so I have no desire to defend the motives of any religious institution. Oh well, I am now at the bottom of this comment pile, so this response, just like other religious acts, is one merely of personal penitence, lol.

by sameers 5mo ago

It feels analogous to giving alms to a religious institution at the end of a prayer service - you don't get anything material for it in return, but maybe for the faithful, that's not the point?

catigula 5mo ago

Tithing often involves the implicit or explicit promise of rewards from God, both spiritual and material.

thinkingtoilet 5mo ago
That's how this is framed as well.
StilesCrisis 5mo ago
Certainly that does happen, and you'd be right to say it's fraud. At the vast majority of churches, it's well understood that the church staff need to eat and pay for the mortgage and upkeep on the facility. Trying to frame tithes as "often grift" is extremely cynical.

epistasis 5mo ago

This is exactly it, I see it in my family members. They are willing to sacrifice so much money and, well, everything to the "cause." It's a cult, and it's deranged. These sorts of scams go on continually in email lists, and vulnerable people just hand over their hard-earned money fist over fist. Pointing out what's going on makes the family member hate whoever points out the con, rather than the con man. If anything, it strengthens the love of the conman and accelerates the grift.

antonvs 5mo ago
What's the cause exactly? Make America a white evangelical "paradise"?
- shagie 5mo ago
  It's an appeal to restore the country to some form of nostalgic view of it. https://www.npr.org/2016/06/07/481137357/the-fractured-republic-explores-how-nostalgia-led-to-polarized-politics https://www.npr.org/2016/06/07/481137357/the-fractured-repub... The fact that Americans are politically divided is self-evident from recent elections. But just how we are divided and why it's proved so hard to get past our differences are questions that admit to many answers. And here's an interesting one from the conservative political theorist Yuval Levin. He says, American liberals and conservatives are both inspired by nostalgia from mid-20th-century America, and they are mired in hopeless efforts to go back rather than focus on the future. ... The striking thing about the baby boomer's cultural dominance over our country for so long is that we view our own past through their eyes. Our idea of the '50s is this kind of simplistic, childish notion of simple families and everything is possible. We see the '60s as a teenager - idealistic, rebellious. In the '70s, we're somewhat maturing, becoming a little cynical. By the '80s we're settled down. In the '90s everything is great. And now, in this century, it seems like we might be over the hill as a country. People think/believe/hope that returning the country to the situation that they perceived that the boomers had when they were growing up without care (because the boomers hadn't yet reached adulthood) would bring back that lifestyle today. ... without having all of the other parts of the social contract between government and the populace in place. People still think that boomers had it best (and maybe they did) and want that lifestyle too.
  - amanaplanacanal 5mo ago
    From what I can see, as a boomer myself, is that we were best at voting ourselves more and more benefits, lower and lower taxes, and mortgaging all the value out of everything that had been built up over the previous generations. And the generations to follow are being left an empty purse.
    - shagie 5mo ago
      I don't entirely place the blame on boomers for the raise of 1950s nostalgia and the corresponding misalignment of economic goals. Someone (not a baby boomer) working in a traditional blue collar job today looks back at the portrayal of life in a rerun of a 1970s sitcom - Happy Days (or spin off, or even an "average" person sitcom from the 80s... Roseanne, Married with children) on late night cable and wonders what it would take to have that lifestyle today? Well, taxes are taking too large of a chunk of the family budget so people gravitate to candidates that say they'll cut taxes. Though, they're missing out on the 1950s tax structure... where people making $200,000 (1950s dollars - about $2M in 2020s dollars) were getting taxed at 91%. Corporate tax rate was much higher too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#History_of_top_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_State... The plank of "we're going to raise taxes" doesn't get as many nostalgic votes for people hoping to return to the lifestyle of the 1950s. There's a whole lot of other factors too. A right leaning 30 year old today is voting to try to have what they perceived how it worked in the 1950s from shallow portrayals of the period.

Meekro 5mo ago

Tithing is not fraud. People give money to support the church, pay the pastor, and so that the church can use it to care for the needy in the community. Good churches do, in fact, use the money for all of the above.

threatofrain 5mo ago
The above argument is exploring the framing that the Trump phone is not fraud because it is more like tithing. As long as Trump puts it to good use then it's all good.

david422 5mo ago

There's another article somewhere indicating how Maga is furious because their money is lost. Someone commented on the article something like - "I'm MAGA and I'm not mad at all". Which is perfectly in line with your comment.

sameers 5mo ago

Lol, this is my lesson in being much clearer when expressing any opinion that relates to religion or politics! The downvotes are fierce on this one. I did not intend to say that tithing/church donations are equivalent to fraud. I didn't click through to read the story, and therefore hadn't assumed it indicates actual fraud taking place (delayed shipments in and of themselves are unprofessional, but needn't be fraudulent.) I was implicitly wondering what might motivate people to trust that a brand that has been known to commit fraud, or at the very least to severely under-perform in terms of quality and on-time delivery, can be entrusted with $500 of their money, to produce something the brand isn't known for (consumer electronics.) Having wondered this, I then proceeded to write my next thought down: Maybe there's more to human motivation than simply the possibility of a material exchange. For example, when one donates to a church, one can reasonably do so without expectation of receiving something tangible and material in return. I by no means think tithing is fraud, per se. Can and do churches embezzle money? Yes. Does that mean they are inherently fraudulent institutions? Absolutely not. And I am as godless as they come, so I have no desire to defend the motives of any religious institution. Oh well, I am now at the bottom of this comment pile, so this response, just like other religious acts, is one merely of personal penitence, lol.