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We've successfully campaigned to make many of those same investors divest from fossil fuel investments. I don't see why investments in crazy surveillance tech s

We've successfully campaigned to make many of those same investors divest from fossil fuel investments. I don't see why investments in crazy surveillance tech should get a pass (and yes, Meta absolutely falls in the same bucket)

repelsteeltje 5mo ago
This. Giving markets free reign, usually doesn't result in alignment with long term best interests or political objectives. It took years of activism and voting with our money to get banks, pension funds and similar institutions to stop funding cluster munitions, land mines, nukes, oil, tabacco. Now big tech and some AI companies are on the radar.
- nradov 5mo ago
  Land mines and cluster munitions have been essential for Ukraine to defend itself against the Russian invasion. Several other European countries including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland have recently withdrawn from the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Treaty. It's cheap and easy to for activists to pretend to be morally superior when they're sitting safely behind computers and don't have to deal with real world consequences. https://apnews.com/article/poland-land-mines-ottawa-convention-russia-ukraine-1d2d9a1daccf2a55265dd0b2db5ebdb5 https://apnews.com/article/poland-land-mines-ottawa-conventi...
  - ffsm8 5mo ago
    Urm, that they're invaluable in an active warzone is unquestionable. The issue with this tech is that they - at least historically - didn't have an expiration date. So if that war ends and you let your children play in the woods... Maybe occasionally one won't be coming back anymore. That's the reason why they got a bad image. Because that's literally what happened post ww2 - for decades. Maybe nowadays they could built them with a forced timer for exploding - if they did, great! If not, your descendants may consider you insane for that opinion in a few decades
    - nradov 5mo ago
      So then we agree that it's morally positive for European investors to put money into companies developing advanced land mines. As for descendants, well the people killed by Russian attacks won't have any more descendants. So that point is kind of moot.
    - dredmorbius 5mo ago
      There are expiring ("non-persistent") munitions, though generally they're safed (triggers are deactivated) rather than exploded. The former does leave explosive materials in the field, but makes the likelihood of detonating these much lower. Self-destructing mines are also used, with timers set to explode after deployment. There's some description of these, and problems with them, here: <https://www.fcnl.org/updates/2022-07/understanding-landmines https://www.fcnl.org/updates/2022-07/understanding-landmines>. Other capabilities under the rubric "smart mine" are also possible: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_mine>.
  - specproc 5mo ago
    As someone who's worked in numerous war zones, and has had to deal with the real world consequences of UXO, I firmly disagree. Biological and chemical weapons could help you win, nuclear weapons could help you win. We don't use this stuff for a reason.
    - nradov 5mo ago
      So then the Ukrainians should just roll over and stop trying to resist? Losing your country is a far more serious consequence then dealing with some UXO later.
      - specproc 5mo ago
        There is a big leap between not resisting and using weapons that are widely agreed to be abhorrent. You're framing a false binary choice here: either deploy weapons that the majority of countries have deemed unconscionable, or lose your country in its entirety. There is also a difference between why we fight and how we fight. Fighting in self defence does not give a state the right to conduct a war in any way it chooses. There are numerous ongoing conflicts in which we've seen states shed hard-won agreements on how wars should be fought. It's an incredibly dangerous trend which is leading us into a new era of horror. Where would you put the limits on Ukraine's actions? What is beyond the pale?
        nradov 5mo ago
        What an ignorant comment, totally disconnected from reality. It literally was a binary choice: without using land mines and cluster munitions the Ukrainian defenders would have been overrun by superior Russian numbers.
        specproc 5mo ago
        You ever been in a war zone, son? You ever see what happens after? I assure you there's no ignorance in my comments.
    - whatevaa 5mo ago
tclancy 5mo ago
I've been regularly thinking about Apartheid-era South Africa. It was a massive Thing for me as a Catholic school kid in the '80s because it seemed (to me) so clearly wrong yet accepted. There were clearly "lefties" making it visible without a lot happening but then "How did you go bankrupt? Two ways: Gradually, then suddenly" happened. And a lot of it started with university students petitioning their schools to divest and that spreading. It will not be fast, but these things can happen and we should start to build a framework for it. And yes, yes, Enemies Lists are fraught with problems and have a history of eating themselves, etc. But the one thing I know is worse is not trying.
- newsclues 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - gljiva 5mo ago
    How dare they not solve _all_ the problems, instead of only contributing towards solving one!
  - swiftcoder 5mo ago
    > South Africa is really thriving these days eh? I know you meant this sarcastically, but unironically yes. GDP has more than doubled since the end of apartheid, and it has the strongest economy on the continent
    - mothballed 5mo ago
      LMAO, now normalize it against world change in GDP since the end of apartheid. Pre-apartheid they were beating the world average, all times after apartheid they have been behind world average. https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DGP-per-capita-global-1.jpg https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DG... Especially the last 20 years, it is falling off a cliff in relative performance. Yeah the post-apartheid peak was 10% above the apartheid peak from the 80s.... unfortunately if you can only get 10% better in 40 years it actually represents a massive failure relative to the rest of the world. I'd agree that apartheid was bad, but it seems to be coupled with other factors that led them to fall behind on the world stage. I'm guessing the kind of ideology that accompanies literal filled stadiums shouting "kill the boer farmer" is not so far fetched from the kind of ideology that resulted in Zimbabwe going for broke.
newsclues 5mo ago
[flagged]
bigyabai 5mo ago
> (and yes, Meta absolutely falls in the same bucket) s/Meta/FAANG Decoupling Meta and Palantir from your 401k would not derisk your retirement from surveillance technology. You'd have to kick out Microsoft and Apple and Google next, at which point you've already forfeit most of your portfolio's growth.

repelsteeltje 5mo ago

This. Giving markets free reign, usually doesn't result in alignment with long term best interests or political objectives. It took years of activism and voting with our money to get banks, pension funds and similar institutions to stop funding cluster munitions, land mines, nukes, oil, tabacco. Now big tech and some AI companies are on the radar.

nradov 5mo ago
Land mines and cluster munitions have been essential for Ukraine to defend itself against the Russian invasion. Several other European countries including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland have recently withdrawn from the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Treaty. It's cheap and easy to for activists to pretend to be morally superior when they're sitting safely behind computers and don't have to deal with real world consequences. https://apnews.com/article/poland-land-mines-ottawa-convention-russia-ukraine-1d2d9a1daccf2a55265dd0b2db5ebdb5 https://apnews.com/article/poland-land-mines-ottawa-conventi...
- ffsm8 5mo ago
  Urm, that they're invaluable in an active warzone is unquestionable. The issue with this tech is that they - at least historically - didn't have an expiration date. So if that war ends and you let your children play in the woods... Maybe occasionally one won't be coming back anymore. That's the reason why they got a bad image. Because that's literally what happened post ww2 - for decades. Maybe nowadays they could built them with a forced timer for exploding - if they did, great! If not, your descendants may consider you insane for that opinion in a few decades
  - nradov 5mo ago
    So then we agree that it's morally positive for European investors to put money into companies developing advanced land mines. As for descendants, well the people killed by Russian attacks won't have any more descendants. So that point is kind of moot.
  - dredmorbius 5mo ago
    There are expiring ("non-persistent") munitions, though generally they're safed (triggers are deactivated) rather than exploded. The former does leave explosive materials in the field, but makes the likelihood of detonating these much lower. Self-destructing mines are also used, with timers set to explode after deployment. There's some description of these, and problems with them, here: <https://www.fcnl.org/updates/2022-07/understanding-landmines https://www.fcnl.org/updates/2022-07/understanding-landmines>. Other capabilities under the rubric "smart mine" are also possible: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_mine>.
- specproc 5mo ago
  As someone who's worked in numerous war zones, and has had to deal with the real world consequences of UXO, I firmly disagree. Biological and chemical weapons could help you win, nuclear weapons could help you win. We don't use this stuff for a reason.
  - nradov 5mo ago
    So then the Ukrainians should just roll over and stop trying to resist? Losing your country is a far more serious consequence then dealing with some UXO later.
    - specproc 5mo ago
      There is a big leap between not resisting and using weapons that are widely agreed to be abhorrent. You're framing a false binary choice here: either deploy weapons that the majority of countries have deemed unconscionable, or lose your country in its entirety. There is also a difference between why we fight and how we fight. Fighting in self defence does not give a state the right to conduct a war in any way it chooses. There are numerous ongoing conflicts in which we've seen states shed hard-won agreements on how wars should be fought. It's an incredibly dangerous trend which is leading us into a new era of horror. Where would you put the limits on Ukraine's actions? What is beyond the pale?
      - nradov 5mo ago
        What an ignorant comment, totally disconnected from reality. It literally was a binary choice: without using land mines and cluster munitions the Ukrainian defenders would have been overrun by superior Russian numbers.
        specproc 5mo ago
        You ever been in a war zone, son? You ever see what happens after? I assure you there's no ignorance in my comments.
  - whatevaa 5mo ago

tclancy 5mo ago

I've been regularly thinking about Apartheid-era South Africa. It was a massive Thing for me as a Catholic school kid in the '80s because it seemed (to me) so clearly wrong yet accepted. There were clearly "lefties" making it visible without a lot happening but then "How did you go bankrupt? Two ways: Gradually, then suddenly" happened. And a lot of it started with university students petitioning their schools to divest and that spreading. It will not be fast, but these things can happen and we should start to build a framework for it. And yes, yes, Enemies Lists are fraught with problems and have a history of eating themselves, etc. But the one thing I know is worse is not trying.

newsclues 5mo ago
[flagged]
- gljiva 5mo ago
  How dare they not solve _all_ the problems, instead of only contributing towards solving one!
- swiftcoder 5mo ago
  > South Africa is really thriving these days eh? I know you meant this sarcastically, but unironically yes. GDP has more than doubled since the end of apartheid, and it has the strongest economy on the continent
  - mothballed 5mo ago
    LMAO, now normalize it against world change in GDP since the end of apartheid. Pre-apartheid they were beating the world average, all times after apartheid they have been behind world average. https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DGP-per-capita-global-1.jpg https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DG... Especially the last 20 years, it is falling off a cliff in relative performance. Yeah the post-apartheid peak was 10% above the apartheid peak from the 80s.... unfortunately if you can only get 10% better in 40 years it actually represents a massive failure relative to the rest of the world. I'd agree that apartheid was bad, but it seems to be coupled with other factors that led them to fall behind on the world stage. I'm guessing the kind of ideology that accompanies literal filled stadiums shouting "kill the boer farmer" is not so far fetched from the kind of ideology that resulted in Zimbabwe going for broke.

newsclues 5mo ago

[flagged]

bigyabai 5mo ago

> (and yes, Meta absolutely falls in the same bucket) s/Meta/FAANG Decoupling Meta and Palantir from your 401k would not derisk your retirement from surveillance technology. You'd have to kick out Microsoft and Apple and Google next, at which point you've already forfeit most of your portfolio's growth.