3 ms·

Up in Smoke

53 points by NaOH 5mo ago

vintagedave 5mo ago
I know many writers, and not a single one of them makes enough money to live from their writing. The article is a long read and I'm doing it in segments, but it's hard to read - agonizing to see the struggles. All writers I know do it for love of writing, because they have the urge to write. There are so many gates: I have written a novel, but I'm at the agent gate right now, trying simply to get someone to represent it. Self-publishing is common, but requires a lot of self-marketing which is not something I feel capable of doing myself, in the tiktok/booktok sense. (Blogs, talks, book events, sure; marketing with a publisher, absolutely; trying to get a self-published novel noticed on booktok, not by myself.) It's not like coding where you can publish a library on github or get involved in a community and your work becomes visible. I've done that. This is another game. After all this -- the writing, the gates, the publishing -- you won't make enough to live. The article really seems to be that the story of writing is a lie, that our culture has a picture of authors living from their writing and it's false. The hidden work and jobs that subsidize being able to write make writing something of a side gig when it should be the main work, and I cannot help but think of all the cultural value we have lost by not letting writers focus more on writing. Some countries have small stipends, small support. We need more.
- renyicircle 5mo ago
  > get a self-published novel noticed on booktok Can anything that's not young adult fantasy pornography actually get noticed on booktok?
  - vintagedave 5mo ago
    Haha... mine is not that. It's scifi, 'weird' fiction, and a commentary on power in the guise of an adventure story, and I think there is room for that somewhere. But I cannot imagine going solo marketing it, especially for Booktok.
    - renyicircle 5mo ago
      To be honest I don't know anything about marketing or publishing books, but I couldn't imagine promoting anything on tiktok either. Thanks for the response. Best of luck with your book.
      - vintagedave 5mo ago
        Thankyou!
    - bombcar 5mo ago
      If it makes you feel any better/worse, a publisher is also likely to leave the marketing up to you, beyond making it available to purchasers and one or two half-hearted "marketing" actions that basically consist of sending you to a convention or two. Books don't earn out their advance unless your first name is a ball of initials.
      - dmd 5mo ago
        What does "a ball of initials" mean?
        zootboy 5mo ago
        J.K. Rowling, J.R.R. Tolkien, etc.
        bombcar 5mo ago
        G.R.R. Martin, etc. It's apparently a defining characteristic!
- JKCalhoun 5mo ago
  Also my experience: "All <game> writers I know do it for love of writing <games>, because they have the urge to write <games>."
- nradov 5mo ago
  We have no shortage of cultural value. There is far more excellent writing out there than anyone can possibly consume (at least in English and other widespread languages). This is not something that we should subsidize with tax dollars. For better or worse, luck probably matters more than quality in determining whether a particular writer breaks through and earns enough money to live. They can do everything right and still fail. Aspiring writers need to accept that reality with grace.
- arjie 5mo ago
  Is that true? Are the great authors mostly those funded by the state? It seems to me that this is either UBI by proxy (a writing stipend for all) or some kind of Bureaucrat As Patron model. Neither of those appeal to me. In fact, the examples of the NEA (no change in the rate of prize winning US works) and the Soviet Writers Union (famous writers explicitly expelled from the stipend mechanism) indicate to me that the effects are marginal at the levels of spending we can tolerate. I’m sympathetic to the general argument that many problems can be solved by throwing money at them but this one seems like it needs a lot more to create an effect or adding government money to it does not result in the creation of more cultural works.
jdougan 5mo ago
Being a full-time writer has always been a tough gig unless it is attached to an institution (but that can corrupt the writing). I'm not sure why anyone would think it wasn't tough. The author/poet/painter starving in a garret was a well known stereotype. Just like most of the arts there is a supply and demand imbalance; lots (claim to) want to write, only a few will actually write to completion, and only a few of those will have written something someone else wants to read. And that's before the traditional publishing funnel. On the other hand, I've known writers who make it work. Larry Correia has a lot of useful thoughts about it, he used to be an accountant before he got into writing and brings those skills to his analysis. eg. "Analyzing My Royalties" https://monsterhunternation.com/2022/02/08/analyzing-my-royalties/ https://monsterhunternation.com/2022/02/08/analyzing-my-roya... he breaks down how the system works. Claims to be making Doctor/Lawyer level money as of 2022. I would like to see an analysis including "non-traditional" publishing options, and how different kinds of writing sell. I suspect genre fiction is different from "literary" from non-fiction, etc.
- bombcar 5mo ago
  John T Reed is another author who found a formula that worked for him - "area of expertise" books, self published. https://johntreed.com/products/how-to-write-publish-and-sell-your-own-how-to-book https://johntreed.com/products/how-to-write-publish-and-sell... You're not going to be able to jump head-first into (career) successful writing; but since it's almost perfectly suited to "after hours work" you can slowly build up to it. The harsh reality is most wannabe authors suck and their writing sucks, and if they haven't written yet they need to get started, because the only way to get good is to get going and produce - the first five books may never see the light of day but you'll have improved.
cousin_it 5mo ago
Making a living through art is such a strange thing to wish for. I always imagine a prehistoric hunter telling tales around the campfire. Should the hunter think of hunting as his day job? Should he wish for a life where he'd spend all his time perfecting his tales, while other people would feed him? If he spends his life hunting in the days and telling tales in the evenings, is he a failure?
- swiftcoder 5mo ago
  > Should the hunter think of hunting as his day job? Should he wish for a life where he'd spend all his time perfecting his tales, while other people would feed him? Funny thing how bards/poets/musicians/storytellers are a fixture in every society that has figured out how to produce more calories than each individual personally needs to consume
  - cousin_it 5mo ago
    You didn't answer the questions though. Should the hunter dream about stopping hunting? Should he think of himself as a failure if he can't? Is this way of thinking good for his soul or his art? It's not about caloric surplus.
    - swiftcoder 5mo ago
      You suggest that the only reason he shouldn't, is that others might have to support him if he stops hunting. I'm saying that the arts (and especially oral traditions in a pre-literate society) are a net benefit to society that do in fact warrant collective investment to support
      - brainwad 5mo ago
        Do we have a dearth of writing? If anything, we seem have a massive oversupply.
        RugnirViking 5mo ago
huflungdung 5mo ago
[dead]

53 points by NaOH 5mo ago

I know many writers, and not a single one of them makes enough money to live from their writing. The article is a long read and I'm doing it in segments, but it's hard to read - agonizing to see the struggles. All writers I know do it for love of writing, because they have the urge to write. There are so many gates: I have written a novel, but I'm at the agent gate right now, trying simply to get someone to represent it. Self-publishing is common, but requires a lot of self-marketing which is not something I feel capable of doing myself, in the tiktok/booktok sense. (Blogs, talks, book events, sure; marketing with a publisher, absolutely; trying to get a self-published novel noticed on booktok, not by myself.) It's not like coding where you can publish a library on github or get involved in a community and your work becomes visible. I've done that. This is another game. After all this -- the writing, the gates, the publishing -- you won't make enough to live. The article really seems to be that the story of writing is a lie, that our culture has a picture of authors living from their writing and it's false. The hidden work and jobs that subsidize being able to write make writing something of a side gig when it should be the main work, and I cannot help but think of all the cultural value we have lost by not letting writers focus more on writing. Some countries have small stipends, small support. We need more.

renyicircle 5mo ago
> get a self-published novel noticed on booktok Can anything that's not young adult fantasy pornography actually get noticed on booktok?
- vintagedave 5mo ago
  Haha... mine is not that. It's scifi, 'weird' fiction, and a commentary on power in the guise of an adventure story, and I think there is room for that somewhere. But I cannot imagine going solo marketing it, especially for Booktok.
  - renyicircle 5mo ago
    To be honest I don't know anything about marketing or publishing books, but I couldn't imagine promoting anything on tiktok either. Thanks for the response. Best of luck with your book.
    - vintagedave 5mo ago
      Thankyou!
  - bombcar 5mo ago
    If it makes you feel any better/worse, a publisher is also likely to leave the marketing up to you, beyond making it available to purchasers and one or two half-hearted "marketing" actions that basically consist of sending you to a convention or two. Books don't earn out their advance unless your first name is a ball of initials.
    - dmd 5mo ago
      What does "a ball of initials" mean?
      - zootboy 5mo ago
        J.K. Rowling, J.R.R. Tolkien, etc.
        bombcar 5mo ago
        G.R.R. Martin, etc. It's apparently a defining characteristic!
JKCalhoun 5mo ago
Also my experience: "All <game> writers I know do it for love of writing <games>, because they have the urge to write <games>."
nradov 5mo ago
We have no shortage of cultural value. There is far more excellent writing out there than anyone can possibly consume (at least in English and other widespread languages). This is not something that we should subsidize with tax dollars. For better or worse, luck probably matters more than quality in determining whether a particular writer breaks through and earns enough money to live. They can do everything right and still fail. Aspiring writers need to accept that reality with grace.
arjie 5mo ago
Is that true? Are the great authors mostly those funded by the state? It seems to me that this is either UBI by proxy (a writing stipend for all) or some kind of Bureaucrat As Patron model. Neither of those appeal to me. In fact, the examples of the NEA (no change in the rate of prize winning US works) and the Soviet Writers Union (famous writers explicitly expelled from the stipend mechanism) indicate to me that the effects are marginal at the levels of spending we can tolerate. I’m sympathetic to the general argument that many problems can be solved by throwing money at them but this one seems like it needs a lot more to create an effect or adding government money to it does not result in the creation of more cultural works.

jdougan 5mo ago

Being a full-time writer has always been a tough gig unless it is attached to an institution (but that can corrupt the writing). I'm not sure why anyone would think it wasn't tough. The author/poet/painter starving in a garret was a well known stereotype. Just like most of the arts there is a supply and demand imbalance; lots (claim to) want to write, only a few will actually write to completion, and only a few of those will have written something someone else wants to read. And that's before the traditional publishing funnel. On the other hand, I've known writers who make it work. Larry Correia has a lot of useful thoughts about it, he used to be an accountant before he got into writing and brings those skills to his analysis. eg. "Analyzing My Royalties" https://monsterhunternation.com/2022/02/08/analyzing-my-royalties/ https://monsterhunternation.com/2022/02/08/analyzing-my-roya... he breaks down how the system works. Claims to be making Doctor/Lawyer level money as of 2022. I would like to see an analysis including "non-traditional" publishing options, and how different kinds of writing sell. I suspect genre fiction is different from "literary" from non-fiction, etc.

bombcar 5mo ago
John T Reed is another author who found a formula that worked for him - "area of expertise" books, self published. https://johntreed.com/products/how-to-write-publish-and-sell-your-own-how-to-book https://johntreed.com/products/how-to-write-publish-and-sell... You're not going to be able to jump head-first into (career) successful writing; but since it's almost perfectly suited to "after hours work" you can slowly build up to it. The harsh reality is most wannabe authors suck and their writing sucks, and if they haven't written yet they need to get started, because the only way to get good is to get going and produce - the first five books may never see the light of day but you'll have improved.

cousin_it 5mo ago

Making a living through art is such a strange thing to wish for. I always imagine a prehistoric hunter telling tales around the campfire. Should the hunter think of hunting as his day job? Should he wish for a life where he'd spend all his time perfecting his tales, while other people would feed him? If he spends his life hunting in the days and telling tales in the evenings, is he a failure?

swiftcoder 5mo ago
> Should the hunter think of hunting as his day job? Should he wish for a life where he'd spend all his time perfecting his tales, while other people would feed him? Funny thing how bards/poets/musicians/storytellers are a fixture in every society that has figured out how to produce more calories than each individual personally needs to consume
- cousin_it 5mo ago
  You didn't answer the questions though. Should the hunter dream about stopping hunting? Should he think of himself as a failure if he can't? Is this way of thinking good for his soul or his art? It's not about caloric surplus.
  - swiftcoder 5mo ago
    You suggest that the only reason he shouldn't, is that others might have to support him if he stops hunting. I'm saying that the arts (and especially oral traditions in a pre-literate society) are a net benefit to society that do in fact warrant collective investment to support
    - brainwad 5mo ago
      Do we have a dearth of writing? If anything, we seem have a massive oversupply.
      - RugnirViking 5mo ago

huflungdung 5mo ago

[dead]