4 ms·

Demining organisations already use mine rollers in situations where they make sense. As I said, they use a layered approach, with mine-rollers, vehicles, sniffe

by _djo_ 14y ago

Demining organisations already use mine rollers in situations where they make sense. As I said, they use a layered approach, with mine-rollers, vehicles, sniffer dogs, etc used as the circumstances require it. The problem with communities doing it themselves is it'll give them a false sense of security about the safety of known minefields. This could potentially increase the number of mine-related injuries because far more people will attempt to live in or traverse known minefields which they wrongly believe to have been cleared yet which still contain roughly half of the original mines.

pbhjpbhj 14y ago
I think you went hyperbolic in your GP post. You said that mine-rollers were "useless" - which they clearly are not if they can clear mines as a first pass (yes given the right terrain).
- _djo_ 14y ago
  I disagree. I said 'solutions like this', i.e. mine rollers as a single technique, were useless. I stand by that statement because the stats are quite clear on this as even in ideal conditions (which are seldom present) a roller can only be expected to detonate half the mines in an area. In fact in many areas rollers can't be used at all because of the terrain and vegetation, so demining teams use a combination of other techniques. This concept is actually worse than useless because of the debris it scatters across a minefield and the false confidence it provides. While I applaud the designer's attempt to create something useful, his lack of domain knowledge has resulted in a design that doesn't solve the problem and may make things worse. If I come across as bit hyperbolic, it's because I strongly believe that this is a horrible and underreported problem which demands both carefully-considered and effective solutions and acknowledgement of the people whose hard work and sacrifices have made so many places safe again. It seems silly to laud an ineffective design while there are people out there every day clearing landmines with solutions that work.
  - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
    Nope, you're doing it again. You're saying something akin to: 'tyres are useless because cars also need engines; people are already effectively using tyres; often tyres don't work'. >It seems silly to laud an ineffective design while there are people out there every day clearing landmines with solutions that work. // Solutions that according to you - strongly implied eve within the parent comment - include rollers. So "Mine rollers are useless [for that purpose] and so should never be used to clear mines under any circumstances." Yes or no?
    - _djo_ 14y ago
      I find this debate a bit perplexing: You're asking me to answer a straw man argument that nobody here has made, so I'm not entirely sure what your overall point is. Mine rollers can be effective for civilian demining, but only in the right type of terrain with the right type of vegetation and when used in concert with other demining techniques. I didn't just imply that it my posts, I stated it outright when asked when and where mine rollers could be effective. But when used independently, as the Mine Kafon's video shows, mine rollers are useless for civilian demining and, because of the false sense of security they provide, could even be harmful. A minefield that people believe to be cleared, but isn't, is far more dangerous than a minefield that's demarcated and which most people know to avoid. So I'd amend your provided phrase and say: "Mine rollers used independently are useless for civilian demining and should not be seen as civilian mine clearance solutions." I'm not sure how much clearer I could be on this.
      - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
        You've really squirmed and squeezed to ensure you can still assert the uselessness of the technique whilst still maintaining the counterpoint of it being used and effective; well played. "Mine rollers can be effective for civilian demining". So, hang on maybe they're not useless as _djo_ was contending. But wait, why is it they can be effective we ask, oh right it's because they "are useless for civilian demining".
        14y ago

by _djo_ 14y ago

pbhjpbhj 14y ago

I think you went hyperbolic in your GP post. You said that mine-rollers were "useless" - which they clearly are not if they can clear mines as a first pass (yes given the right terrain).

_djo_ 14y ago
I disagree. I said 'solutions like this', i.e. mine rollers as a single technique, were useless. I stand by that statement because the stats are quite clear on this as even in ideal conditions (which are seldom present) a roller can only be expected to detonate half the mines in an area. In fact in many areas rollers can't be used at all because of the terrain and vegetation, so demining teams use a combination of other techniques. This concept is actually worse than useless because of the debris it scatters across a minefield and the false confidence it provides. While I applaud the designer's attempt to create something useful, his lack of domain knowledge has resulted in a design that doesn't solve the problem and may make things worse. If I come across as bit hyperbolic, it's because I strongly believe that this is a horrible and underreported problem which demands both carefully-considered and effective solutions and acknowledgement of the people whose hard work and sacrifices have made so many places safe again. It seems silly to laud an ineffective design while there are people out there every day clearing landmines with solutions that work.
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  Nope, you're doing it again. You're saying something akin to: 'tyres are useless because cars also need engines; people are already effectively using tyres; often tyres don't work'. >It seems silly to laud an ineffective design while there are people out there every day clearing landmines with solutions that work. // Solutions that according to you - strongly implied eve within the parent comment - include rollers. So "Mine rollers are useless [for that purpose] and so should never be used to clear mines under any circumstances." Yes or no?
  - _djo_ 14y ago
    I find this debate a bit perplexing: You're asking me to answer a straw man argument that nobody here has made, so I'm not entirely sure what your overall point is. Mine rollers can be effective for civilian demining, but only in the right type of terrain with the right type of vegetation and when used in concert with other demining techniques. I didn't just imply that it my posts, I stated it outright when asked when and where mine rollers could be effective. But when used independently, as the Mine Kafon's video shows, mine rollers are useless for civilian demining and, because of the false sense of security they provide, could even be harmful. A minefield that people believe to be cleared, but isn't, is far more dangerous than a minefield that's demarcated and which most people know to avoid. So I'd amend your provided phrase and say: "Mine rollers used independently are useless for civilian demining and should not be seen as civilian mine clearance solutions." I'm not sure how much clearer I could be on this.
    - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
      You've really squirmed and squeezed to ensure you can still assert the uselessness of the technique whilst still maintaining the counterpoint of it being used and effective; well played. "Mine rollers can be effective for civilian demining". So, hang on maybe they're not useless as _djo_ was contending. But wait, why is it they can be effective we ask, oh right it's because they "are useless for civilian demining".
      - 14y ago