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> It's frustrating to try to interpret these stories with a lot of writing and video describing everything except the crucial detail about what the charges were
by ninjin 5mo ago
> It's frustrating to try to interpret these stories with a lot of writing and video describing everything except the crucial detail about what the charges were for.
Is it really a crucial detail though? As someone having lived in Japan for a long time, I see no reason why we can not discuss the fact that civil rights and detention treatment in Japan are lacking without resorting to "Do they deserve it in light of what they were suspected for?". I personally see no reason why suspects can not deserve decent sleep, meal, bedding, etc. even if they may be Shoko Asahara himself.
For the record, I have not watched any video or read anything else about this individual. Nor do I intend to.
- Aurornis 5mo ago> Is it really a crucial detail though? Literally the central trigger point of the story. > For the record, I have not watched any video or read anything else about this individual. Nor do I intend to. Then I can see why you're not interested in the details
- ninjin 5mo agoFair I suppose. I guess one can treat this either as a personal story (although frustratingly scattered across multiple places and incomplete) or as a description of a single instance of an arrest in Japan.
- fzeroracer 5mo agoIs it a crucial detail? Can you explain why you need to know what she was arrested for, given that she says the charges were dropped?
- commandersaki 5mo agoSuppose it was CSAM in the mail, do you think a delicate touch is still warranted? The context matters.
- swat535 5mo agoIt doesn't matter what the charges were , she was cleared from it. Doesn't Japan have innocent until proven guilty laws? All this story does it makes me want to avoid traveling to Japan. I don't fancy getting picked up for jay walking and tortured. What an awful system..
- commandersaki 5mo ago* All this story does it makes me want to avoid traveling to Japan. I don't fancy getting picked up for jay walking and tortured.* Sure if you naively believe the hyperbole then don't go. Been 3 times, you'll know when you're in trouble, and you will have a chance to correct it before it goes further. Infact according to her video she did have a chance, and she didn't bother.
- ramchip 5mo agoIt'd be a pretty horrible system if it was possible to get anyone you dislike tortured for a month by mailing them CSAM they didn't ask for...
- commandersaki 5mo agoWell her detention didn't happen immediately, it likely happened because she didn't respond to an email while they were investigating asking for more information, which she even admits.
- true_religion 5mo agoFor most people, the critique of Japan is because their own countries used to operate jails in this way. So rationalizations of why it’s appropriate because the person was suspected of XYZ isn’t going to land with them and is largely irrelevant. But I don’t mind playing devils advocate. Should the justice system force confessions out of murderers? No, because they are only potential murderers and we have historically been able to get innocent parties to confess. People with vulnerability such as mental health problems are even more likely to give false confessions. The goal of requesting testimony should be honesty not compliance. This logic applies as well the drug dealer, drug users, and jay walkers. It’s a moral principle disconnected from any specific geography so even if we are not Japanese and have no intention to interact with Japan, we can say they have not lived up to that principle.
- arcfour 5mo agoIt doesn't matter though. Nobody should be treated like this, especially not before their guilt has been proven.
- pas 5mo agoreasonable suspicion is a pretty well established concept. importing controlled substances would get an arrest warrant easily anywhere if law enforcement decides to pursue the case. the administive pretrial detention is also pretty common, especially nowadays with the ICE craze. nobody should be treated like this, agreed, but that doesn't mean that the process has no correlation to the level of guilt established and the certainty of it. (the real problem is that it's way too many bullshit laws.)
- arcfour 5mo agoBut ultimately the charges were dropped so that makes the first half of your message effectively a non sequitur.
- pas 5mo agohow? Japan has a very harsh system, this serves as both a deterrent and also incentivizes people to make their equivalent of plea deals. There's nothing magical about a criminal trial, especially in Japan, since there's not even a jury. And in general there's no magical threshold for proving guilt. Nobody should be treated like this. We agree. I'm trying to point out that unfortunately is a trade off, it works, and unfortunately a lot of people are getting treated like this all over the world for things that are administratively easy to prove and are illegal by the letter of the law, so technically easy to "prove guilt".
- commandersaki 5mo agoI think there is a happy path though and she stuffed it up by not responding for a request for information while she went overseas as they were investigating the matter. When she returned they put her in detention as they deemed her a flight risk. I don't know what information they asked, but it would seem prudent to provide it or say you don't have it or you are overseas and cannot get it at the moment, rather than simply ignore it.
- idle_zealot 5mo ago> Literally the central trigger point of the story The fact that you and other insist on this really gets at the crux of this whole problem. There are two notable positions on criminality and punishment: yours, which is broadly that the justice system exists, at least in part, to deliver righteous punishment on the deserving, and the position of those appalled by the treatment here, which is that the purpose of the justice system is primarily to protect people, and then to deliver predictable, proportionate punishment of those found guilty to disincentivize criminal behavior. If you think that torture of someone detained but not found guilty might be justifiable if they're accused of a sufficiently heinous crime then you have an illiberal position that can and will be used to enable abuse of the criminal justice system to inflict extralegal punishment on anyone for any reason.
- reddozen 5mo ago[flagged]
- commandersaki 5mo agoYou're getting downvoted to hell, but extraordinary claims deserves extraordinary evidence.
- customguy 5mo agoWhat claim are you talking about? The claim is that she was denied her rights. What she did beforehand would only be relevant if it could somehow suspend those rights. The argument for that being the case is that she doesn't say, therefore we can assume she did... something... that is sufficient to suspend her rights; without being able to name even an example.
- ehnto 5mo agoI think this is even getting ahead of itself, since the story is writing that you can be treated this way without yet being charged. Not knowing if the author "deserves" it puts you in the shoes of the detainee in either case, since the detention comes before assigning guilt.
- commandersaki 5mo agoNor do I intend to. I watched a little bit. She went overseas and the police asked for some information and she didn't respond. When she returned they deemed her a flight risk because she hadn't responded to the things they were asking.
- Aeolun 5mo agoIt is? Because the whole ‘is it awful’ thing hinges pretty strongly on how many options you were given to avoid it before going there. If I had the police over, was an ass, had them come back, was an ass again. Then at some point they’re going to just think I’m the person that’d run away while they conduct their investigation. I’m sure bad policemen exist in Japan, but all the ones I’ve met have been very friendly and reasonable.
- eduction 5mo ago[flagged]
- hparadiz 5mo agoYou can love Japanese culture and still call them out when they are clearly uncivilized. We're talking about a culture largely defined by the same people that did Nanjing. It's quite ironic that the same culture that claims to be pacifist has no problem inflicting psychological torture on prisoners. Asia in general has this problem. Makes me think of TNG (Season 1, Episode 8). Death for walking on the grass. What is Justice anyway?
- simianparrot 5mo ago«Uncivilised» Compared to what? European and other western countries with significantly higher crime rates? Safety comes at a cost.
- hparadiz 5mo agoPrisoner conditions have nothing to do with crime rates. What is the connection?
- fauchletenerum 5mo agoAvoiding being a criminal due to fear of being subjected to those conditions?
- Jtarii 5mo agoWhen the punishment for a crime is morally worse than the crime itself I think there is a problem.
- simianparrot 5mo agoThe punishment should be harsher than the crime. Stealing an apple might not be a "big problem", but it sets a precedent that taking someone else's property is acceptable under some circumstances -- say, the relative value of said object.
- anigbrowl 5mo agocivil rights and detention treatment in Japan are lacking The main difference I see are that police can hold you for a much longer period before bringing you in front of a judge and the bail conditions. Regarding the specific detention conditions, they do not strike me as worse than American jails.