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It cracks me up when people say Chrome is a monopoly, because a massive amount of computing devices do not even ship with Chrome. Windows computers, Macbooks, a

It cracks me up when people say Chrome is a monopoly, because a massive amount of computing devices do not even ship with Chrome. Windows computers, Macbooks, and iPhones require users go search out and install Chrome on their own out of their own volition, shipping with entirely functional and decent browsers out of the box that they have lots of patterns to push. Even many Android phones ship with browsers other than Chrome as a default still from what I understand. How is Chrome, of all things, a monopoly? Have words just entirely lost all meaning and now monopoly just means "things which are popular that I dislike"?

wil421 6mo ago
I’m constantly badgered by google apps on my iPhone to use Chrome. In fact I’m not able to just click a link and open my default browser, I have to see the big chrome logo and a smaller link to choose my default browser.
- vel0city 6mo ago
  > by google apps on my iPhone Ever thought about just not using those apps if you want to avoid the Google ecosystem? Too bad there's just absolutely no mapping application available on iPhone but Google Maps. Too bad there's no way to send an email on an iPhone outside of Gmail. What's that? A user has to once again go out of their way to install those apps as well? Well isn't that strange. I thought Google was a monopoly on iPhones.
traderj0e 6mo ago
and even the iPhone Chrome doesn't use the Chromium engine, it's Safari under the hood
MSFT_Edging 6mo ago
Chrome is a monopoly by extending the internet in ways that force users into chrome. Due to market share and Google's prevalence, they have the sway to introduce things that cannot meaningfully be avoided without extreme siloing.
- vel0city 6mo ago
  Outside of WebUSB I personally haven't meaningfully been impacted in any ways. Can you share which ways this is? Note, this is separate from a "so many things are just Chromium", which I agree is an issue, but isn't the same as a "Google Chrome is a monopoly". Because in the end there are still many non-Chrome browsers which support WebUSB which do not end up with a lot of the downsides of Chrome specifically about Google harvesting your data and what not.
  - CursedSilicon 6mo ago
    Ah, the "this doesn't fit my very specific technicality argument" You know full well what people mean when they say "Chrome"
    - vel0city 6mo ago
      > You know full well what people mean when they say "Chrome" Yeah, Chrome, the web browser made by Google that bugs you to sign in with your Google Account. Most people don't mean Microsoft Edge when you say "Chrome". Do you call Microsoft Edge "Chrome"? Chrome is a product made by Google that is a web browser. If the argument is Chromium is too interwoven, that's a separate argument. But even then, what does it mean that "Chromium is a monopoly"? Is Linux a monopoly as well? Why or why not? Note you haven't actually given me any other ways one would be impacted like I asked. What are the other majorly missing features Chrome pushes that other browsers don't have that most sites require? What else am I missing by not using a non-Chromium-based browser?
      - majorchord 6mo ago
        > what does it mean that "Chromium is a monopoly" As someone else said earlier, it is a monopoly by extending the internet in ways that force users into using their browser engine. Due to market share and Google's prevalence, they have the sway to introduce things that cannot meaningfully be avoided without extreme siloing. > What are the other majorly missing features Chrome pushes that other browsers don't have that most sites require? This is a different question, please don't move the goalposts.
ranger_danger 6mo ago
> Windows computers Ship with a chromium fork called Edge
- vel0city 6mo ago
  Edge isn't Chrome though, is it? Like, its not shipped by Google, it doesn't bug you to log in with a Google account, doesn't ship metrics back to Google, right? Not quite the same thing now is it?
  - traderj0e 6mo ago
    The usual complaint is that Chromium dominates as an engine. I don't fully understand the complaint because anyone can fork it, but maybe they're (rightfully) concerned nobody will fork it because Google controls the web standards, or they're concerned Chrome could stop using the open version of the engine.
Dylan16807 6mo ago
Why do you keep talking about who installs the app? That has nothing to do with whether something is a monopoly, which is primarily about market share.
- vel0city 6mo ago
  If a user is openly going out of their way to go and install a competitor's product despite a perfectly serviceable version coming by default, how can the the one being sought out be seen as a monopoly? The competition came pre-installed! How did the user manage to install Chrome on Windows if Chrome is a monopoly, the only serviceable browser around? They copy the source code from a magazine or something? Get a floppy disk in the mail?
  - Dylan16807 6mo ago
    Whatever your definition of monopoly is, it's wrong. The threshold is not 100% market share. If that was the threshold no monopoly has ever existed.
    - vel0city 6mo ago
      > Whatever your definition of monopoly is, it's wrong Ok, so enlighten me which standard of monopoly they're so obviously breaking? > The threshold is not 100% market share. I never once said so I'm not arguing it requires 100% marketshare. I'm just pointing out there are tons of workable competitors out there, in fact one has to use a functional and fully featured competitors product to go and install Chrome on most platforms out there. How can one claim Chrome is a monoply when there are tons of competitors out there which work just fine, and for most users their computers came with the competitors products? Please, do enlighten me, how is Chrome a monopoly?
      - Dylan16807 6mo ago
        > Ok, so enlighten me which standard of monopoly they're so obviously breaking? Breaking? They're being a monopoly by having a huge market share. A majority of browers are directly branded chrome, and the chrome team has strong codebase control over most of the alternatives too. Especially on desktop. It's that simple. > I'm not arguing it requires 100% marketshare. I'm just pointing out there are tons of workable competitors out there, in fact one has to use a functional and fully featured competitors product to go and install Chrome on most platforms out there. > How can one claim Chrome is a monoply when there are tons of competitors out there which work just fine, and for most users their computers came with the competitors products? The existence of competition doesn't change whether something is a monopoly. It only disproves 100%, which is why I mentioned 100%. The choices of users don't change whether something is a monopoly.
dns_snek 6mo ago
What's the point of this pedantry? Replace "monopoly" with "dominant market player" and their point still stands. A company doesn't need to be a literal monopoly to engage in anti-competitive behavior. The EU would call this "abuse of dominance". [1] >> Google holds absolute authority on how websites are rendered and if websites can be found. This is still 100% correct. Google owns the dominant browser and the dominant search engine, this means that they get to dictate how websites function and pick winners and losers through their search algorithm. If you're a publisher (i.e. anyone who hosts a website) you're forced to fall in line or go out of business. [1] https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-05/antitrust_procedures_102_en.pdf https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-05...
- vel0city 6mo ago
  > If you're a publisher (i.e. anyone who hosts a website) you're forced to fall in line or go out of business. What features of Chrome are website publishers forced to fall in line with or go out of business that practically other browser makers aren't also pushing?

wil421 6mo ago

I’m constantly badgered by google apps on my iPhone to use Chrome. In fact I’m not able to just click a link and open my default browser, I have to see the big chrome logo and a smaller link to choose my default browser.

vel0city 6mo ago
> by google apps on my iPhone Ever thought about just not using those apps if you want to avoid the Google ecosystem? Too bad there's just absolutely no mapping application available on iPhone but Google Maps. Too bad there's no way to send an email on an iPhone outside of Gmail. What's that? A user has to once again go out of their way to install those apps as well? Well isn't that strange. I thought Google was a monopoly on iPhones.

traderj0e 6mo ago

and even the iPhone Chrome doesn't use the Chromium engine, it's Safari under the hood

MSFT_Edging 6mo ago

Chrome is a monopoly by extending the internet in ways that force users into chrome. Due to market share and Google's prevalence, they have the sway to introduce things that cannot meaningfully be avoided without extreme siloing.

vel0city 6mo ago
Outside of WebUSB I personally haven't meaningfully been impacted in any ways. Can you share which ways this is? Note, this is separate from a "so many things are just Chromium", which I agree is an issue, but isn't the same as a "Google Chrome is a monopoly". Because in the end there are still many non-Chrome browsers which support WebUSB which do not end up with a lot of the downsides of Chrome specifically about Google harvesting your data and what not.
- CursedSilicon 6mo ago
  Ah, the "this doesn't fit my very specific technicality argument" You know full well what people mean when they say "Chrome"
  - vel0city 6mo ago
    > You know full well what people mean when they say "Chrome" Yeah, Chrome, the web browser made by Google that bugs you to sign in with your Google Account. Most people don't mean Microsoft Edge when you say "Chrome". Do you call Microsoft Edge "Chrome"? Chrome is a product made by Google that is a web browser. If the argument is Chromium is too interwoven, that's a separate argument. But even then, what does it mean that "Chromium is a monopoly"? Is Linux a monopoly as well? Why or why not? Note you haven't actually given me any other ways one would be impacted like I asked. What are the other majorly missing features Chrome pushes that other browsers don't have that most sites require? What else am I missing by not using a non-Chromium-based browser?
    - majorchord 6mo ago
      > what does it mean that "Chromium is a monopoly" As someone else said earlier, it is a monopoly by extending the internet in ways that force users into using their browser engine. Due to market share and Google's prevalence, they have the sway to introduce things that cannot meaningfully be avoided without extreme siloing. > What are the other majorly missing features Chrome pushes that other browsers don't have that most sites require? This is a different question, please don't move the goalposts.

ranger_danger 6mo ago

> Windows computers Ship with a chromium fork called Edge

vel0city 6mo ago
Edge isn't Chrome though, is it? Like, its not shipped by Google, it doesn't bug you to log in with a Google account, doesn't ship metrics back to Google, right? Not quite the same thing now is it?
- traderj0e 6mo ago
  The usual complaint is that Chromium dominates as an engine. I don't fully understand the complaint because anyone can fork it, but maybe they're (rightfully) concerned nobody will fork it because Google controls the web standards, or they're concerned Chrome could stop using the open version of the engine.

Dylan16807 6mo ago

Why do you keep talking about who installs the app? That has nothing to do with whether something is a monopoly, which is primarily about market share.

vel0city 6mo ago
If a user is openly going out of their way to go and install a competitor's product despite a perfectly serviceable version coming by default, how can the the one being sought out be seen as a monopoly? The competition came pre-installed! How did the user manage to install Chrome on Windows if Chrome is a monopoly, the only serviceable browser around? They copy the source code from a magazine or something? Get a floppy disk in the mail?
- Dylan16807 6mo ago
  Whatever your definition of monopoly is, it's wrong. The threshold is not 100% market share. If that was the threshold no monopoly has ever existed.
  - vel0city 6mo ago
    > Whatever your definition of monopoly is, it's wrong Ok, so enlighten me which standard of monopoly they're so obviously breaking? > The threshold is not 100% market share. I never once said so I'm not arguing it requires 100% marketshare. I'm just pointing out there are tons of workable competitors out there, in fact one has to use a functional and fully featured competitors product to go and install Chrome on most platforms out there. How can one claim Chrome is a monoply when there are tons of competitors out there which work just fine, and for most users their computers came with the competitors products? Please, do enlighten me, how is Chrome a monopoly?
    - Dylan16807 6mo ago
      > Ok, so enlighten me which standard of monopoly they're so obviously breaking? Breaking? They're being a monopoly by having a huge market share. A majority of browers are directly branded chrome, and the chrome team has strong codebase control over most of the alternatives too. Especially on desktop. It's that simple. > I'm not arguing it requires 100% marketshare. I'm just pointing out there are tons of workable competitors out there, in fact one has to use a functional and fully featured competitors product to go and install Chrome on most platforms out there. > How can one claim Chrome is a monoply when there are tons of competitors out there which work just fine, and for most users their computers came with the competitors products? The existence of competition doesn't change whether something is a monopoly. It only disproves 100%, which is why I mentioned 100%. The choices of users don't change whether something is a monopoly.

dns_snek 6mo ago

What's the point of this pedantry? Replace "monopoly" with "dominant market player" and their point still stands. A company doesn't need to be a literal monopoly to engage in anti-competitive behavior. The EU would call this "abuse of dominance". [1] >> Google holds absolute authority on how websites are rendered and if websites can be found. This is still 100% correct. Google owns the dominant browser and the dominant search engine, this means that they get to dictate how websites function and pick winners and losers through their search algorithm. If you're a publisher (i.e. anyone who hosts a website) you're forced to fall in line or go out of business. [1] https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-05/antitrust_procedures_102_en.pdf https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-05...

vel0city 6mo ago
> If you're a publisher (i.e. anyone who hosts a website) you're forced to fall in line or go out of business. What features of Chrome are website publishers forced to fall in line with or go out of business that practically other browser makers aren't also pushing?