4 ms·

> Yet management always seems to miss the institutional knowledge, and experience, If they actually miss it they can call it back to work for triple the going

> Yet management always seems to miss the institutional knowledge, and experience, If they actually miss it they can call it back to work for triple the going rate. They usually don't though. Those left behind have to figure it out again with whatever new tools they have at their disposal, thus continuing the great circle of corporate life. Or corporate death if they don't figure it out in time and it is actually important. But even then, the management won't miss anything.

Haven880 6mo ago
Most of the time, management don't even know what they don't know. As a result, entire America lost engineers and builders and now don't even know how to build rails, factories and rockets to moon.
- teiferer 6mo ago
  Have you missed that they recently sent a rocket to moon?
  - microtonal 6mo ago
    Well, rails get made as well, I think the point was that a lot of things require reinventing knowledge that was previously known.
    - consp 6mo ago
      Or phrase it as reusing exiting tech because "it is cheaper" ending in having to reinvent it because all the people who designed it and made it have gone.
      - bluGill 6mo ago
        IT isn't even clear that is bad - SpaceX is famous for designing rockets from scratch that are better than the old technology everyone else has been using.
  - wil421 6mo ago
    This is the internet. You can’t expect HN or Reddit to be positive, especially around America. It was the same way before Trump was around. These people and bots have no idea what they are talking about. They’re parrots.
  - spwa4 6mo ago
    That happened in the reverse way. The government fired and underpaid a lot of people at Nasa ... and Musk hired incredibly experienced people, who became experienced on the taxpayers' dime, to build a rocket, for huge payrises. The biggest but not only example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mueller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mueller (yes, lots of subcontractors involved, however, Nasa paid, with a bonus percentage provided by the US military) Note that Mueller gives the payment situation at TRW, and the fact that he "wasn't appreciated" as a direct reason to go to SpaceX. What did you think happened? Does anyone actually believe Musk did the technical design for that engine, just because he claims so? Or I should say he constantly claims it, staying slightly away from direct claims to avoid getting caught in lies (well ... getting caught AGAIN).
    - anoneng 6mo ago
      SpaceX has nothing to do with any part of the Artemis II crewed lunar fly-by. They were considered and rejected. It was entirely legacy aerospace contractors. SpaceX is under contract for parts of future missions including the lunar lander.
  - tw04 6mo ago
    They sent a module around the moon. They didn’t send a rocket to the moon. They still haven’t landed and their timeline keeps slipping.
- microtonal 6mo ago
  Relevant post with some military examples as well: https://techtrenches.dev/p/the-west-forgot-how-to-make-things https://techtrenches.dev/p/the-west-forgot-how-to-make-thing... (Has some AI tells though, probably AI-assisted?)
- noobermin 6mo ago
  I'm very sympathetic to this standpoint, but an obvious retort is why don't the engineers become their own boss and do better? What's stopping them?
  - throawayonthe 6mo ago
    what?
  - user_7832 6mo ago
    I'd imagine it's access to capital and resources. I suspect many engineers/professionals (especially in eg consulting or manufacturing) would start their own business if they have the financial stability to do so. A lot of market forces tend to "naturally" create monopolies/oligopolies. For eg if you're the biggest steel plant you can operate efficiently and keep moderate margins, beating any plants not as big (economies of scale). An independent guy (or even the entire team) can't just open a new steel plant shop down the road, even if the current one sucks.
    - noobermin 6mo ago
      Haven't software engineering salaries been like 200K for almost a decade? With very little actual need in capital requirements relative to a host of industries with expensive equipment, I'd say of the class of workers most poised to start their own businesses, I'd say you guys are the best placed. To be a bit honest, I'm a computational scientist who's never seen anything near 100K and likely never will. It's hard to imagine not having around 4 times my salary and not being able to start something myself.
      - radicalbyte 6mo ago
        It gets sucked up into housing. So if you're in your early 50s that's fine as you probably brought very cheap. Mid-40s and under? Unlikely unless you were extremely lucky. I'm 45 by the time I've been able to buy housing it has always been peak despite having very high earnings at times.
      - 6mo ago
wesleywt 6mo ago
It takes two years to get up to speed on a job. It seems laying off will cost the company time even if they are saving money.
tw04 6mo ago
>If they actually miss it they can call it back to work for triple the going rate. That’s great in theory, it rarely works in reality. Those people almost universally find new work quickly because they’re good, or retire because they can. In both instances the idea of going back to bail out a company that just screwed you, operating with a giant target on your back when the inevitable next layoff occurs, isn’t worth it for 10x the salary. Ignoring the fact a business of any significant size isn’t approving paying someone to come back for 3x, they’ll just caN the manager for the fallout.

Haven880 6mo ago

Most of the time, management don't even know what they don't know. As a result, entire America lost engineers and builders and now don't even know how to build rails, factories and rockets to moon.

teiferer 6mo ago
Have you missed that they recently sent a rocket to moon?
- microtonal 6mo ago
  Well, rails get made as well, I think the point was that a lot of things require reinventing knowledge that was previously known.
  - consp 6mo ago
    Or phrase it as reusing exiting tech because "it is cheaper" ending in having to reinvent it because all the people who designed it and made it have gone.
    - bluGill 6mo ago
      IT isn't even clear that is bad - SpaceX is famous for designing rockets from scratch that are better than the old technology everyone else has been using.
- wil421 6mo ago
  This is the internet. You can’t expect HN or Reddit to be positive, especially around America. It was the same way before Trump was around. These people and bots have no idea what they are talking about. They’re parrots.
- spwa4 6mo ago
  That happened in the reverse way. The government fired and underpaid a lot of people at Nasa ... and Musk hired incredibly experienced people, who became experienced on the taxpayers' dime, to build a rocket, for huge payrises. The biggest but not only example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mueller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mueller (yes, lots of subcontractors involved, however, Nasa paid, with a bonus percentage provided by the US military) Note that Mueller gives the payment situation at TRW, and the fact that he "wasn't appreciated" as a direct reason to go to SpaceX. What did you think happened? Does anyone actually believe Musk did the technical design for that engine, just because he claims so? Or I should say he constantly claims it, staying slightly away from direct claims to avoid getting caught in lies (well ... getting caught AGAIN).
  - anoneng 6mo ago
    SpaceX has nothing to do with any part of the Artemis II crewed lunar fly-by. They were considered and rejected. It was entirely legacy aerospace contractors. SpaceX is under contract for parts of future missions including the lunar lander.
- tw04 6mo ago
  They sent a module around the moon. They didn’t send a rocket to the moon. They still haven’t landed and their timeline keeps slipping.
microtonal 6mo ago
Relevant post with some military examples as well: https://techtrenches.dev/p/the-west-forgot-how-to-make-things https://techtrenches.dev/p/the-west-forgot-how-to-make-thing... (Has some AI tells though, probably AI-assisted?)
noobermin 6mo ago
I'm very sympathetic to this standpoint, but an obvious retort is why don't the engineers become their own boss and do better? What's stopping them?
- throawayonthe 6mo ago
  what?
- user_7832 6mo ago
  I'd imagine it's access to capital and resources. I suspect many engineers/professionals (especially in eg consulting or manufacturing) would start their own business if they have the financial stability to do so. A lot of market forces tend to "naturally" create monopolies/oligopolies. For eg if you're the biggest steel plant you can operate efficiently and keep moderate margins, beating any plants not as big (economies of scale). An independent guy (or even the entire team) can't just open a new steel plant shop down the road, even if the current one sucks.
  - noobermin 6mo ago
    Haven't software engineering salaries been like 200K for almost a decade? With very little actual need in capital requirements relative to a host of industries with expensive equipment, I'd say of the class of workers most poised to start their own businesses, I'd say you guys are the best placed. To be a bit honest, I'm a computational scientist who's never seen anything near 100K and likely never will. It's hard to imagine not having around 4 times my salary and not being able to start something myself.
    - radicalbyte 6mo ago
      It gets sucked up into housing. So if you're in your early 50s that's fine as you probably brought very cheap. Mid-40s and under? Unlikely unless you were extremely lucky. I'm 45 by the time I've been able to buy housing it has always been peak despite having very high earnings at times.
    - 6mo ago

wesleywt 6mo ago

It takes two years to get up to speed on a job. It seems laying off will cost the company time even if they are saving money.

tw04 6mo ago

>If they actually miss it they can call it back to work for triple the going rate. That’s great in theory, it rarely works in reality. Those people almost universally find new work quickly because they’re good, or retire because they can. In both instances the idea of going back to bail out a company that just screwed you, operating with a giant target on your back when the inevitable next layoff occurs, isn’t worth it for 10x the salary. Ignoring the fact a business of any significant size isn’t approving paying someone to come back for 3x, they’ll just caN the manager for the fallout.