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Giving a precise description of what the computer is supposed to do is exactly what programming is. The more specific your requirements the closer you get to n

by bulbar 5mo ago

Giving a precise description of what the computer is supposed to do is exactly what programming is. The more specific your requirements the closer you get to natural language not being useful anymore.

kyykky 5mo ago
I code mostly in APL and J. It’s much faster to type the code than explain everything to AI.
- satvikpendem 5mo ago
  The exceptions that prove the rule. When your programming language is built up of singular Unicode characters with specific meanings, of course that's faster than typing out in English what you want. What do you use them for? For most AI users it's usually CRUD and I've never seen a web server or frontend in APL like languages.
  - noosphr 5mo ago
    The exception is the rule. The reason why programming is hard is because most languages force you to use a hammer when you need a screw driver. LLMs are very good at misusing hammers and most people find them useful for that reason. If you use a sane dsl instead the natural language description of a problem is always more complex and much longer than the equivalent description in a dsl. It's also usually wrong to boot. This is what algebra used to look like before variables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27s_cattle_problem#Problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27s_cattle_problem#... I don't think you will find anyone who can do better than an LLM at one shotting the prose version of the problem. Both will of course be wrong. But I also don't think you will find an LLM that can solve the problem faster than a human with Prolog when you have to use the prose description of the problem.
    - stingraycharles 5mo ago
      Using esoteric programming languages doesn’t suddenly make it true for the majority of development, which is web apps, CRUD stuff, some data science, etc.
      - noosphr 5mo ago
        SQL and algebra are not esoteric languages.
        satvikpendem 5mo ago
        For most devs, they are.
    - satvikpendem 5mo ago
      Who is using APL and J these days? I guarantee 90+% of Claude users are developing CRUD web apps, or something similar. Your point about algebra is a non sequitur to what people are actually developing for these days.
gspr 5mo ago
This is actually my biggest gripe with vibecoding. The single best feature of any programming language is that it is precise. And that is what we throw out?! I favor of natural language, of all things?! We're insane!
- timschmidt 5mo ago
  It turns out an awful lot of precision (plenty for many things) lives in library and web APIs, documentation, header files and dependency manifests. Language can literally just point at it without repeating it all. Avoidance of mistake through elimination of manual copying in things like actuarial and ballistics tables was what the original computers were built for.
  - stingraycharles 5mo ago
    Custom written code can also point at those APIs and libraries without repeating it all? Or am I missing your point?
    - theshrike79 5mo ago
      API Glue is the easy and boring part in programming. Nobody really enjoys wiring API A to API B, combining the results and using API C to push it forwards. Any semi-competent AI Agent can do that with a plan you've written in 5 minutes.
      - skydhash 5mo ago
        I would love to see an AI try to make sense of GTK API. I may be wrong, but it seems when people are talking about easy glue code, they’re talking about web services API, not OS API, not graphics or sound API, not file formats libraries,…
        theshrike79 5mo ago
        I used Sonnet 3.5 over a year ago to decrypt a notoriously shitty local government API to get data out of meetings, votes and discussions. I know it's a piece of shit API done in the worst possible way on purpose (they don't want openness, but had to fulfill a law that mandates "openness") because I had previously tried to do it manually - twice. I ran out of whisky before I got anything done. Sonnet _3.5_ almost one-shotted it with just the API "documentation" they had and access to Python and curl. People have also hooked stuff into proprietary APIs on "smart" devices with zero documentation, just by having an Agent tirelessly run through thousands of permutations to figure it out.
deleted 5mo ago
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by bulbar 5mo ago

kyykky 5mo ago

I code mostly in APL and J. It’s much faster to type the code than explain everything to AI.

satvikpendem 5mo ago
The exceptions that prove the rule. When your programming language is built up of singular Unicode characters with specific meanings, of course that's faster than typing out in English what you want. What do you use them for? For most AI users it's usually CRUD and I've never seen a web server or frontend in APL like languages.
- noosphr 5mo ago
  The exception is the rule. The reason why programming is hard is because most languages force you to use a hammer when you need a screw driver. LLMs are very good at misusing hammers and most people find them useful for that reason. If you use a sane dsl instead the natural language description of a problem is always more complex and much longer than the equivalent description in a dsl. It's also usually wrong to boot. This is what algebra used to look like before variables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27s_cattle_problem#Problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27s_cattle_problem#... I don't think you will find anyone who can do better than an LLM at one shotting the prose version of the problem. Both will of course be wrong. But I also don't think you will find an LLM that can solve the problem faster than a human with Prolog when you have to use the prose description of the problem.
  - stingraycharles 5mo ago
    Using esoteric programming languages doesn’t suddenly make it true for the majority of development, which is web apps, CRUD stuff, some data science, etc.
    - noosphr 5mo ago
      SQL and algebra are not esoteric languages.
      - satvikpendem 5mo ago
        For most devs, they are.
  - satvikpendem 5mo ago
    Who is using APL and J these days? I guarantee 90+% of Claude users are developing CRUD web apps, or something similar. Your point about algebra is a non sequitur to what people are actually developing for these days.

gspr 5mo ago

This is actually my biggest gripe with vibecoding. The single best feature of any programming language is that it is precise. And that is what we throw out?! I favor of natural language, of all things?! We're insane!

timschmidt 5mo ago
It turns out an awful lot of precision (plenty for many things) lives in library and web APIs, documentation, header files and dependency manifests. Language can literally just point at it without repeating it all. Avoidance of mistake through elimination of manual copying in things like actuarial and ballistics tables was what the original computers were built for.
- stingraycharles 5mo ago
  Custom written code can also point at those APIs and libraries without repeating it all? Or am I missing your point?
  - theshrike79 5mo ago
    API Glue is the easy and boring part in programming. Nobody really enjoys wiring API A to API B, combining the results and using API C to push it forwards. Any semi-competent AI Agent can do that with a plan you've written in 5 minutes.
    - skydhash 5mo ago
      I would love to see an AI try to make sense of GTK API. I may be wrong, but it seems when people are talking about easy glue code, they’re talking about web services API, not OS API, not graphics or sound API, not file formats libraries,…
      - theshrike79 5mo ago
        I used Sonnet 3.5 over a year ago to decrypt a notoriously shitty local government API to get data out of meetings, votes and discussions. I know it's a piece of shit API done in the worst possible way on purpose (they don't want openness, but had to fulfill a law that mandates "openness") because I had previously tried to do it manually - twice. I ran out of whisky before I got anything done. Sonnet _3.5_ almost one-shotted it with just the API "documentation" they had and access to Python and curl. People have also hooked stuff into proprietary APIs on "smart" devices with zero documentation, just by having an Agent tirelessly run through thousands of permutations to figure it out.

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]